9 ms·

Could someone with a background in law explain the advantage of a reclassification over imposing the same penalties on this particular group of substances? Bec

by sebst 10mo ago

Could someone with a background in law explain the advantage of a reclassification over imposing the same penalties on this particular group of substances? Because outside of the legal definition, I would not call those “weapons” in everyday language. They are a thing on their own…

neetle 10mo ago
They fall into the same fuzzy area as chemical weapons imo. They have a non-standard form factor, sure, but they’re still primarily intended to harm people
kachapopopow 10mo ago
[flagged]
- BriggyDwiggs42 10mo ago
  Wait did you just put rape in quotes wtf
  - add-sub-mul-div 10mo ago
    "Forget it, Jake. It's Hacker News."
  - kachapopopow 10mo ago
    it is to imply ambiguity which I guess reading it a 2nd time can imply something entirely different woops.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 10mo ago
      If you were to put your point into more careful words, what would it be?
      - kachapopopow 10mo ago
        it's just a bad quickly written comment that only has surface level thoughts I was writing a paragraph about it, but realized that in the end it boils down to any kind of sexual actions during intoxication is same as statutory rape (cannot give consent) and really shouldn't happen at all, in reality the comment was just outsourcing this conclusion instead of thinking about it for more than few seconds.
greggyb 10mo ago
One avenue, couched in specifics of US law, but I presume the ideas have analogs in Germany's legal system: A battery occurs when a harmful physical contact occurs. Contact with a weapon is pretty much by definition battery. The use of such a drug in the commission of rape or other violent crimes would then be a very easily proven case. If the substance is present in a victim's body, then battery has occured, basically by definition. Given that rape and other violent crimes that are committed with the use of such drugs may not leave other physical signs on the body of the victim, then this may be the only physical evidence. The examination for presence of such a drug in the bloodstream is also much less intrusive than for a typical rape kit exam. There's nothing binary or black and white in such investigations, so this is an additional avenue to provide evidence to support the prosecution of these violent criminals.
- jojobas 10mo ago
  > If the substance is present in a victim's body There is a possibility that the accused has nothing to do with it, you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug.
  - im3w1l 10mo ago
    > you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug. Does it actually work that way in the real world?
    - jonahrd 10mo ago
      Yes, people can and do recreationally take GHB quite often. (also commonly used in date rape cases) The same can be said for MDMA, and others
      - im3w1l 10mo ago
        Let me clarify. I meant the following. Assume ghb is found and evidence of sex. The woman claims she didn't take it and didn't want to have sex. Wouldn't this be enough for a conviction?
wongarsu 10mo ago
I wasn't able to find any information on how exactly that reclassification is happening. Everyone just quotes that one sentence by the Federal Minister of the Interior that they are doing it. My best guess is that they don't see a chance to get a law to this effect passed (see also the note about the other related bill being postponed), so they are taking some measure that's in the existing jurisdiction of the ministry. That might be the ministry passing regulations to this effect, or the federal police trying to declare date rape drugs as illegal weapons
purplepatrick 10mo ago
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Germany has a written legal code. This could mean that punishments are more strictly classified than under a, say, precedence-based common law system. Changing the classification could move these kinds of crimes into harsher punishment bands.
- andrewflnr 10mo ago
  The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.
  - Beijinger 10mo ago
    No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.
    - cindyllm 10mo ago
      [dead]
    - andrewflnr 10mo ago
      How do you think that bears on my post, which is a variation on "please write the damn law, but in a sensical way please"?
      - Beijinger 10mo ago
        You can't write a law for every possible situation. And many laws were introduced because they were committed, and they realized, there is no law to punish the person. English common law had many good ideas. The US criminal system may be a mess, but the underlying ideas are good. Not everybody can be Norway.... ;-)
Klaus23 10mo ago
I don't have a background in law, but here are some suggestions. The German penal code often imposes harsher punishments for the same offense if a weapon was involved. Rape, for example, carries a minimum sentence of two years. If a weapon is present, it is a minimum of three years. If the weapon is used, the minimum sentence is 5 years. Before the change, date rape drugs would have fallen under a minimum of three years because of a separate clause. Classifying them as weapons would also affect crimes other than rape. Additionally, if legal substances can be used as date rape drugs, classifying them as weapons would give the police more authority to act in certain situations.
impossiblefork 10mo ago
I think weapons is the right term. It's a method of chemical restraint. Combat gases with similar functions are regarded as weapons too.

by sebst 10mo ago

neetle 10mo ago

They fall into the same fuzzy area as chemical weapons imo. They have a non-standard form factor, sure, but they’re still primarily intended to harm people

kachapopopow 10mo ago

[flagged]

BriggyDwiggs42 10mo ago
Wait did you just put rape in quotes wtf
- add-sub-mul-div 10mo ago
  "Forget it, Jake. It's Hacker News."
- kachapopopow 10mo ago
  it is to imply ambiguity which I guess reading it a 2nd time can imply something entirely different woops.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 10mo ago
    If you were to put your point into more careful words, what would it be?
    - kachapopopow 10mo ago
      it's just a bad quickly written comment that only has surface level thoughts I was writing a paragraph about it, but realized that in the end it boils down to any kind of sexual actions during intoxication is same as statutory rape (cannot give consent) and really shouldn't happen at all, in reality the comment was just outsourcing this conclusion instead of thinking about it for more than few seconds.

greggyb 10mo ago

One avenue, couched in specifics of US law, but I presume the ideas have analogs in Germany's legal system: A battery occurs when a harmful physical contact occurs. Contact with a weapon is pretty much by definition battery. The use of such a drug in the commission of rape or other violent crimes would then be a very easily proven case. If the substance is present in a victim's body, then battery has occured, basically by definition. Given that rape and other violent crimes that are committed with the use of such drugs may not leave other physical signs on the body of the victim, then this may be the only physical evidence. The examination for presence of such a drug in the bloodstream is also much less intrusive than for a typical rape kit exam. There's nothing binary or black and white in such investigations, so this is an additional avenue to provide evidence to support the prosecution of these violent criminals.

jojobas 10mo ago
> If the substance is present in a victim's body There is a possibility that the accused has nothing to do with it, you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug.
- im3w1l 10mo ago
  > you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug. Does it actually work that way in the real world?
  - jonahrd 10mo ago
    Yes, people can and do recreationally take GHB quite often. (also commonly used in date rape cases) The same can be said for MDMA, and others
    - im3w1l 10mo ago
      Let me clarify. I meant the following. Assume ghb is found and evidence of sex. The woman claims she didn't take it and didn't want to have sex. Wouldn't this be enough for a conviction?

wongarsu 10mo ago

I wasn't able to find any information on how exactly that reclassification is happening. Everyone just quotes that one sentence by the Federal Minister of the Interior that they are doing it. My best guess is that they don't see a chance to get a law to this effect passed (see also the note about the other related bill being postponed), so they are taking some measure that's in the existing jurisdiction of the ministry. That might be the ministry passing regulations to this effect, or the federal police trying to declare date rape drugs as illegal weapons

purplepatrick 10mo ago

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Germany has a written legal code. This could mean that punishments are more strictly classified than under a, say, precedence-based common law system. Changing the classification could move these kinds of crimes into harsher punishment bands.

andrewflnr 10mo ago
The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.
- Beijinger 10mo ago
  No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.
  - cindyllm 10mo ago
    [dead]
  - andrewflnr 10mo ago
    How do you think that bears on my post, which is a variation on "please write the damn law, but in a sensical way please"?
    - Beijinger 10mo ago
      You can't write a law for every possible situation. And many laws were introduced because they were committed, and they realized, there is no law to punish the person. English common law had many good ideas. The US criminal system may be a mess, but the underlying ideas are good. Not everybody can be Norway.... ;-)

Klaus23 10mo ago

I don't have a background in law, but here are some suggestions. The German penal code often imposes harsher punishments for the same offense if a weapon was involved. Rape, for example, carries a minimum sentence of two years. If a weapon is present, it is a minimum of three years. If the weapon is used, the minimum sentence is 5 years. Before the change, date rape drugs would have fallen under a minimum of three years because of a separate clause. Classifying them as weapons would also affect crimes other than rape. Additionally, if legal substances can be used as date rape drugs, classifying them as weapons would give the police more authority to act in certain situations.

impossiblefork 10mo ago

I think weapons is the right term. It's a method of chemical restraint. Combat gases with similar functions are regarded as weapons too.