6 ms·

OpenMANET Wi-Fi HaLow open-source project for Raspberry Pi–based MANET radios

148 points by hexmiles 10mo ago

easygenes 10mo ago
This guy has been promoting and hacking hardware around this project heavily the last few months: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550fh2n5rUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550fh2n5rUs
- coreyw 10mo ago
  That guy is not contributing to the open source project.
  - victorbjorklund 10mo ago
    Which is why OP says ”around” the project? Never claimed he is a contributor to the code.
esafak 10mo ago
MANETs: back from the dead!? The problem is not the hardware, but the software; apparently, nobody can think of a killer application.
- harporoeder 10mo ago
  The killer application in this case is ATAK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Team_Awareness_Kit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Team_Awareness_Kit
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - wakawaka28 10mo ago
    Is ATAK even useful to civilians? Is it trustworthy?
    - adrianpike 10mo ago
      Yes and yes, we've used it for civilian Search & Rescue in tandem with CalTopo.
    - gh02t 10mo ago
      I use it for hiking, its great.
      - Yossarrian22 10mo ago
        How do you use it for that?
        gh02t 10mo ago
        Can design then export routes from any geospatial tool like CalTopo, AllTrails, or even WinTAK directly to your ATAK device. Then in ATAK you can use it basically as something like AllTrails on steroids, including offline map caching, route guidance, markers, tracking etc... even geotagged photos. This can be synced across multiple devices among friends using a TAK server. It can also be used for off grid communications and tracking between hikers via something like Meshtastic, which I use fairly regularly with my partner out camping well outside of cellular coverage. ATAK is not necessarily the most intuitive UI, but it's crazy powerful for doing basically anything outdoors.
        BertoldVdb 10mo ago
        It is an offline moving map with very fancy marker etc support. Seems a good choice for a hiking app?
  - kylixz 10mo ago
    If anyone wants to help make MANETs better with TAK… check out opportunities on ditto.com where the team is building crdts and using them to help enable SAR. Say Turner sent you in your application if it looks interesting. Particularly the FDE role.
- bb88 10mo ago
  Meshtastic has been popular, but relies upon a terrible implementation of a mesh -- and it's vastly oversold on its capabilities. I understand some hams run a meshtastic repeater primarily to convince meshtastic users to become hams.
  - delabel 10mo ago
    Having used Mestastic recently but ignorant of the details, what are some of issues with its mesh implementation?
  - ianburrell 10mo ago
    LoRa has tiny bandwidth. Enough for text messaging if not too many people use it. HaLow has lots more bandwidth, 433Mbps max, which allows for proper networking. It can bridge to other networks. But the practical range is only 1km. Also, the radios are expensive while LoRa is cheap.
  - nativeit 10mo ago
    I feel like a HAM license is something of an inevitability of my future, although I don’t have any practical need for one. Catching satellite signals in my backyard is a lot of fun.
    - bb88 10mo ago
      The technician license is honestly "good enough" for a lot of people. Particularly now that the digital voice modes allow people to chat across countries through the internet. DMR/SystemFusion/MMDVM are things you might want to research.
    - bigfishrunning 10mo ago
      I felt the same way a few years ago, and got my license in 2023. I still don't know why, but I don't regret it either. There is a ton to play with in that space, if you're a tinkerer I absolutely encourage you to start studying the license materials. You never know where it'll take you.
    - bityard 10mo ago
EvanAnderson 10mo ago
In case anybody is like me and didn't know what Wi-Fi HaLow is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ah
speransky 10mo ago
I use MorseMicro in 802.11s mode successfully, just openwrt stuff, any reason to try this project ?
- jrexilius 10mo ago
  Last time I played with Moremicro they didn't work with real 802.11s and had some hokey proprietary hierarchal tree topology that required a main basestation gateway. ad-hoc, peer-to-peer was broken. They finally fixed their driver?
  - speransky 10mo ago
    I believe yes, give them other try, my scenarios with one connected station and mesh on drone platforms works out of the box
  - wryun 10mo ago
    The tree mesh thing you're thinking of is actually just EasyMesh (it's a standard!). We're using prplmesh. But yes, 11s Mesh also works. Let us know on the forum (https://community.morsemicro.com/ https://community.morsemicro.com/) or via github (https://github.com/MorseMicro/ https://github.com/MorseMicro/) if you're having issues. Err, I work for Morse in case that wasn't clear.
grendelt 10mo ago
> This technology is especially useful in the civilian space for search and rescue, disaster response, airsoft events, and any disconnected communications scenario. Airsoft?! Huh?
- kragen 10mo ago
  Radio communication is a critical advantage in actual infantry fights, so it makes sense that it would be useful for cosplay infantry fights.
bcrl 10mo ago
MANET is one of the protocols I was involved in implementing for a certain network protocol suite back around 2012. Mesh routing protocols only work for the most limited of use cases. They don't know about the capacity of the underlying wireless network and basically fall apart when things are congested or there are radios with poor reception. QoS is implemented far better in modern cell phone networks, and if the routing protocol doesn't take QoS into account, it's gonna suck.
- digdugdirk 10mo ago
  Interesting! If someone with a math background (but not a CS background) wanted to dig deep into learning about mesh networking protocol theory - do you have any recommendations for learning resources or places to get started? I've long imagined that a content centric mesh network approach would be a better starting point than what we've built up currently, but it seems like such a deep and mysterious subject and I have no idea where to even begin to get started.
  - bcrl 10mo ago
    I never followed where things went after the contract was complete. Suffice it to say that we only cared about getting the protocol working, as the company was a contract engineering firm doing work for a product that was ultimately for military use. Actually testing it in the real world and improving behaviour was out of scope. We only tested it in a simulated network to make sure that the protocol correctly handled various cases (like certain wireless nodes not being able to see each other due to obstructions). I had other friends back in the early 2000s working on WiMax, and the hardest part of their work was getting QoS right. More recently (still 10+ years ago), another friend implemented a TCP proxy for a major cell phone provider in the US that used a more wireless friendly congestion control protocol on the wireless network side of things as regular TCP breaks down when latency increases due to reception issues (which gets interpreted as congestion and triggers retransmits). Since the cellular base stations ensured that the wireless network was effectively lossless (albeit with periods of much higher latency), performance for end users increased substantially when the bulk of the TCP retransmits were suppressed. There's a huge gap between making wireless work vs making it work well. For me, 5G is a step backwards as all the tricks used to push for higher data rates (like larger QAM constellations) make everything worse in rural areas with poor reception: there just isn't a good enough SNR 99% of the time for the new shiny, and the increased power usage does nothing other than drain my phone's battery faster than it did with older LTE. But that is where all the money for research is today. Wireless is complicated.
hexmiles 10mo ago
All modules seem to be us-only. Is there a modules usable in eu frequency?
- pantalaimon 10mo ago
  The airtime restrictions make it pretty much useless in the EU
topazas 10mo ago
In Europe still struggle.
jonathantf2 10mo ago
I played with HaLow for a while but the only stuff I could get here in the UK was some undocumented crap from AliExpress, anything more robust looking only seems to work in the US. A shame because it’d solve a infrastructure challenge I have to juggle each year
mk_stjames 10mo ago
Ever since 802.11ah devices started appearing I've thought it would be perfect for partnering inside wireless IP cameras... and hell, make them mesh together with something like this so each one configured on your network extends the range of the others in it's area. Streaming 720P H265 is easily doable at the speeds the networks achieve for a few cameras, and the range would be perfect for perimeter monitoring most properties ala farms & industrial parks. This device however - an entire Raspberry Pi + hat for a router to do..? ... seems like a solution in search of a problem to solve.
- vetrom 10mo ago
  A medium range trail/offgrid camera is perfect for this application. All the other solutions in the space are sdcard only, or dependent on some variant of LTE/5G.
ge96 10mo ago
I wonder if you could air drop these at some location, it wouldn't last long but way to deploy the nodes.

148 points by hexmiles 10mo ago

This guy has been promoting and hacking hardware around this project heavily the last few months: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550fh2n5rUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550fh2n5rUs

coreyw 10mo ago
That guy is not contributing to the open source project.
- victorbjorklund 10mo ago
  Which is why OP says ”around” the project? Never claimed he is a contributor to the code.

esafak 10mo ago

MANETs: back from the dead!? The problem is not the hardware, but the software; apparently, nobody can think of a killer application.

harporoeder 10mo ago
The killer application in this case is ATAK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Team_Awareness_Kit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Team_Awareness_Kit
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- wakawaka28 10mo ago
  Is ATAK even useful to civilians? Is it trustworthy?
  - adrianpike 10mo ago
    Yes and yes, we've used it for civilian Search & Rescue in tandem with CalTopo.
  - gh02t 10mo ago
    I use it for hiking, its great.
    - Yossarrian22 10mo ago
      How do you use it for that?
      - gh02t 10mo ago
        Can design then export routes from any geospatial tool like CalTopo, AllTrails, or even WinTAK directly to your ATAK device. Then in ATAK you can use it basically as something like AllTrails on steroids, including offline map caching, route guidance, markers, tracking etc... even geotagged photos. This can be synced across multiple devices among friends using a TAK server. It can also be used for off grid communications and tracking between hikers via something like Meshtastic, which I use fairly regularly with my partner out camping well outside of cellular coverage. ATAK is not necessarily the most intuitive UI, but it's crazy powerful for doing basically anything outdoors.
      - BertoldVdb 10mo ago
        It is an offline moving map with very fancy marker etc support. Seems a good choice for a hiking app?
- kylixz 10mo ago
  If anyone wants to help make MANETs better with TAK… check out opportunities on ditto.com where the team is building crdts and using them to help enable SAR. Say Turner sent you in your application if it looks interesting. Particularly the FDE role.
bb88 10mo ago
Meshtastic has been popular, but relies upon a terrible implementation of a mesh -- and it's vastly oversold on its capabilities. I understand some hams run a meshtastic repeater primarily to convince meshtastic users to become hams.
- delabel 10mo ago
  Having used Mestastic recently but ignorant of the details, what are some of issues with its mesh implementation?
- ianburrell 10mo ago
  LoRa has tiny bandwidth. Enough for text messaging if not too many people use it. HaLow has lots more bandwidth, 433Mbps max, which allows for proper networking. It can bridge to other networks. But the practical range is only 1km. Also, the radios are expensive while LoRa is cheap.
- nativeit 10mo ago
  I feel like a HAM license is something of an inevitability of my future, although I don’t have any practical need for one. Catching satellite signals in my backyard is a lot of fun.
  - bb88 10mo ago
    The technician license is honestly "good enough" for a lot of people. Particularly now that the digital voice modes allow people to chat across countries through the internet. DMR/SystemFusion/MMDVM are things you might want to research.
  - bigfishrunning 10mo ago
    I felt the same way a few years ago, and got my license in 2023. I still don't know why, but I don't regret it either. There is a ton to play with in that space, if you're a tinkerer I absolutely encourage you to start studying the license materials. You never know where it'll take you.
  - bityard 10mo ago

EvanAnderson 10mo ago

In case anybody is like me and didn't know what Wi-Fi HaLow is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ah

speransky 10mo ago

I use MorseMicro in 802.11s mode successfully, just openwrt stuff, any reason to try this project ?

jrexilius 10mo ago
Last time I played with Moremicro they didn't work with real 802.11s and had some hokey proprietary hierarchal tree topology that required a main basestation gateway. ad-hoc, peer-to-peer was broken. They finally fixed their driver?
- speransky 10mo ago
  I believe yes, give them other try, my scenarios with one connected station and mesh on drone platforms works out of the box
- wryun 10mo ago
  The tree mesh thing you're thinking of is actually just EasyMesh (it's a standard!). We're using prplmesh. But yes, 11s Mesh also works. Let us know on the forum (https://community.morsemicro.com/ https://community.morsemicro.com/) or via github (https://github.com/MorseMicro/ https://github.com/MorseMicro/) if you're having issues. Err, I work for Morse in case that wasn't clear.

grendelt 10mo ago

> This technology is especially useful in the civilian space for search and rescue, disaster response, airsoft events, and any disconnected communications scenario. Airsoft?! Huh?

kragen 10mo ago
Radio communication is a critical advantage in actual infantry fights, so it makes sense that it would be useful for cosplay infantry fights.

bcrl 10mo ago

MANET is one of the protocols I was involved in implementing for a certain network protocol suite back around 2012. Mesh routing protocols only work for the most limited of use cases. They don't know about the capacity of the underlying wireless network and basically fall apart when things are congested or there are radios with poor reception. QoS is implemented far better in modern cell phone networks, and if the routing protocol doesn't take QoS into account, it's gonna suck.

digdugdirk 10mo ago
Interesting! If someone with a math background (but not a CS background) wanted to dig deep into learning about mesh networking protocol theory - do you have any recommendations for learning resources or places to get started? I've long imagined that a content centric mesh network approach would be a better starting point than what we've built up currently, but it seems like such a deep and mysterious subject and I have no idea where to even begin to get started.
- bcrl 10mo ago
  I never followed where things went after the contract was complete. Suffice it to say that we only cared about getting the protocol working, as the company was a contract engineering firm doing work for a product that was ultimately for military use. Actually testing it in the real world and improving behaviour was out of scope. We only tested it in a simulated network to make sure that the protocol correctly handled various cases (like certain wireless nodes not being able to see each other due to obstructions). I had other friends back in the early 2000s working on WiMax, and the hardest part of their work was getting QoS right. More recently (still 10+ years ago), another friend implemented a TCP proxy for a major cell phone provider in the US that used a more wireless friendly congestion control protocol on the wireless network side of things as regular TCP breaks down when latency increases due to reception issues (which gets interpreted as congestion and triggers retransmits). Since the cellular base stations ensured that the wireless network was effectively lossless (albeit with periods of much higher latency), performance for end users increased substantially when the bulk of the TCP retransmits were suppressed. There's a huge gap between making wireless work vs making it work well. For me, 5G is a step backwards as all the tricks used to push for higher data rates (like larger QAM constellations) make everything worse in rural areas with poor reception: there just isn't a good enough SNR 99% of the time for the new shiny, and the increased power usage does nothing other than drain my phone's battery faster than it did with older LTE. But that is where all the money for research is today. Wireless is complicated.

hexmiles 10mo ago

All modules seem to be us-only. Is there a modules usable in eu frequency?

pantalaimon 10mo ago
The airtime restrictions make it pretty much useless in the EU

topazas 10mo ago

In Europe still struggle.

jonathantf2 10mo ago

I played with HaLow for a while but the only stuff I could get here in the UK was some undocumented crap from AliExpress, anything more robust looking only seems to work in the US. A shame because it’d solve a infrastructure challenge I have to juggle each year

mk_stjames 10mo ago

Ever since 802.11ah devices started appearing I've thought it would be perfect for partnering inside wireless IP cameras... and hell, make them mesh together with something like this so each one configured on your network extends the range of the others in it's area. Streaming 720P H265 is easily doable at the speeds the networks achieve for a few cameras, and the range would be perfect for perimeter monitoring most properties ala farms & industrial parks. This device however - an entire Raspberry Pi + hat for a router to do..? ... seems like a solution in search of a problem to solve.

vetrom 10mo ago
A medium range trail/offgrid camera is perfect for this application. All the other solutions in the space are sdcard only, or dependent on some variant of LTE/5G.

ge96 10mo ago

I wonder if you could air drop these at some location, it wouldn't last long but way to deploy the nodes.