7 ms·

How will they achieve that without introducing a requirement to identify yourself on every online platform, which some would say is probably the whole reason fo

How will they achieve that without introducing a requirement to identify yourself on every online platform, which some would say is probably the whole reason for introducing something promoted as being "for the children"™.

OsrsNeedsf2P 11mo ago
Given all the information companies have about users on social media, do you really believe they can't guess the real age?
- mlmonkey 11mo ago
  Some people: these online companies have too much information about us! They know everything about us!! Where's muh privacy?? Same people now: how will the poor company know that it's an underage user?? Oh noes!
delusional 11mo ago
the EU is working on a system for age verification that won't identify you to the platform. The details are of course complicated, but you can imagine an openid like system run by the government that only exposes if you're old enough for Y. The platforms asks your government if you're old enough. You identify yourself to your government. Your government responds to the question with a single Boolean.
- Semaphor 11mo ago
  Our German national ID supports just verifying that you are over age X, with no other info given.
  - high_na_euv 11mo ago
    But why would you give your id?
    - Semaphor 11mo ago
      You don't need to, that's the thing. The site requests "are you over 18" and you use your ID to prove it without them getting any other information from it. Requires a phone with NFC, but the app is open source
      - gumby271 11mo ago
        hopefully the protocol is open source too. I'd hate to find that it just works on iOS and Google certified Android.
        Semaphor 11mo ago
        Should all be open, but I don't know for sure. Works with ungoogled android unless something changed. https://github.com/Governikus/AusweisApp https://github.com/Governikus/AusweisApp
        gumby271 11mo ago
        That's very cool and good to hear. Thanks for sharing!
        delusional 11mo ago
        I think that ends up being a more difficult problem than just open source. There will have to be some cryptography at play to make sure the age verification information is actually attested by your government. It would be possible for them to provide an open-source app, but design the cryptography in such a way that you couldn't deploy it anyway. That would make it rather pointless. I too hope they design that into the system, which the danish authorities unfortunately don't have a good track record of doing.
      - bakugo 11mo ago
        How does the site verify that the ID being used for verification is the ID of the person that is actually using the account? How does the site verify that a valid ID was used at all? If the app is open source, what stops someone from modifying it to always claim the user is over 18 without an ID?
  - oblio 11mo ago
    It needs to be scaled to the EU level.
- iLoveOncall 11mo ago
  This is an acceptable solution only if the government doesn't know which platform you are trying to access either.
- ulrikrasmussen 11mo ago
  *Only for Google Android and Apple iOS users. Everyone else who don't want to be a customer of these two, including GrapheneOS and LineageOS users, will have to upload scans of identity papers to each service, like the UK clusterfuck. Source: I wrote Digitaliseringsstyrelsen in Denmark where this solution will be implemented next year as a pilot, and they confirm that the truly anonymous solution will not be offered on other platforms. Digitaliseringsstyrelsen and EU is truly, utterly fucking us all over by locking us in to the trusted competing platforms offered by the current American duopoly on the smartphone market.
  - kranke155 11mo ago
    This sounds like a temporary issue.
    - cesarb 11mo ago
      > This sounds like a temporary issue. There is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.
      - kranke155 10mo ago
        There is nothing less permanent than software. Permanent solutions in software last 5 years.
    - ulrikrasmussen 11mo ago
      Why? It's not because a hardware token based solution that will work on desktops is technically impossible, but they literally wrote me that they have no plans to investigate the possibility of offering that. This is officially the plan for the permanent solution.
      - kranke155 10mo ago
        Permanence in software is measured in half decades.
tokai 11mo ago
With digital ID. They are releasing it in a couple of months. https://digst.dk/it-loesninger/den-digitale-identitetstegnebog/ https://digst.dk/it-loesninger/den-digitale-identitetstegneb...
- stickfigure 11mo ago
  I look forward to being able to buy your porn surfing habits on the darkweb in a few years.
  - buellerbueller 11mo ago
    *everyone's The difference is meaningful. It's mostly prisoners dilemma. If only one persons porn habit is available thats bad for them. If everyones (legal) porn habits are available, then it gets normalized.
    - Forgeties79 11mo ago
      Normalized or not, the risk is you get something akin US drug enforcement: ignored for certain demographics, enforced for others. The ability to see someone's porn history is irrelevant until a government (or employer perhaps) wants to weaponize it. The problem isn't my peers, it's the people in power and how many of them lack any scruples.
      - buellerbueller 10mo ago
        Drugs are not legal; porn is.
    - Liquix 11mo ago
      this seems to run parallel to the "i have nothing to hide" / "well they have everyone's data, so who cares about mine" arguments. this is too narrow a view on the issue. the problem isn't that a colleague, acquaintance, neighbor, or government employee is going to snoop through your data. the problem is that once any government has everyone's data, they will feed it to PRISM-esque systems and use it to accurately model the population, granting the power to predict and shape future events.
Glyptodon 11mo ago
In the US they'd just make the platforms massively liable and let them worry about how to enforce. No idea what they'll do in another country.
- stOneskull 11mo ago
  we get to see how it works in australia next month. there's already stories of kids putting on fake mustaches to fool age-of-face recognition, which is one of the methods used. i think it'll get to: "these methods aren't good enough, we'll have to enforce digital id".
  - Glyptodon 11mo ago
    Do they make parents liable or no? I'm somewhat curious about that as an option.
lapsis_beeftech 11mo ago
Child abuse is already illegal, the law needs to be expanded to cover these new forms of harm to children. It seems reasonable that I am held criminally accountable if I expose my child to harmful Internet content like social media.
rnimmer 11mo ago
It would be a lot simpler to only sell standard devices to adults. Kids should be using devices with curated access to specific tools and platforms meant for children.

OsrsNeedsf2P 11mo ago

Given all the information companies have about users on social media, do you really believe they can't guess the real age?

mlmonkey 11mo ago
Some people: these online companies have too much information about us! They know everything about us!! Where's muh privacy?? Same people now: how will the poor company know that it's an underage user?? Oh noes!

delusional 11mo ago

the EU is working on a system for age verification that won't identify you to the platform. The details are of course complicated, but you can imagine an openid like system run by the government that only exposes if you're old enough for Y. The platforms asks your government if you're old enough. You identify yourself to your government. Your government responds to the question with a single Boolean.

Semaphor 11mo ago
Our German national ID supports just verifying that you are over age X, with no other info given.
- high_na_euv 11mo ago
  But why would you give your id?
  - Semaphor 11mo ago
    You don't need to, that's the thing. The site requests "are you over 18" and you use your ID to prove it without them getting any other information from it. Requires a phone with NFC, but the app is open source
    - gumby271 11mo ago
      hopefully the protocol is open source too. I'd hate to find that it just works on iOS and Google certified Android.
      - Semaphor 11mo ago
        Should all be open, but I don't know for sure. Works with ungoogled android unless something changed. https://github.com/Governikus/AusweisApp https://github.com/Governikus/AusweisApp
        gumby271 11mo ago
        That's very cool and good to hear. Thanks for sharing!
      - delusional 11mo ago
        I think that ends up being a more difficult problem than just open source. There will have to be some cryptography at play to make sure the age verification information is actually attested by your government. It would be possible for them to provide an open-source app, but design the cryptography in such a way that you couldn't deploy it anyway. That would make it rather pointless. I too hope they design that into the system, which the danish authorities unfortunately don't have a good track record of doing.
    - bakugo 11mo ago
      How does the site verify that the ID being used for verification is the ID of the person that is actually using the account? How does the site verify that a valid ID was used at all? If the app is open source, what stops someone from modifying it to always claim the user is over 18 without an ID?
- oblio 11mo ago
  It needs to be scaled to the EU level.
iLoveOncall 11mo ago
This is an acceptable solution only if the government doesn't know which platform you are trying to access either.
ulrikrasmussen 11mo ago
*Only for Google Android and Apple iOS users. Everyone else who don't want to be a customer of these two, including GrapheneOS and LineageOS users, will have to upload scans of identity papers to each service, like the UK clusterfuck. Source: I wrote Digitaliseringsstyrelsen in Denmark where this solution will be implemented next year as a pilot, and they confirm that the truly anonymous solution will not be offered on other platforms. Digitaliseringsstyrelsen and EU is truly, utterly fucking us all over by locking us in to the trusted competing platforms offered by the current American duopoly on the smartphone market.
- kranke155 11mo ago
  This sounds like a temporary issue.
  - cesarb 11mo ago
    > This sounds like a temporary issue. There is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.
    - kranke155 10mo ago
      There is nothing less permanent than software. Permanent solutions in software last 5 years.
  - ulrikrasmussen 11mo ago
    Why? It's not because a hardware token based solution that will work on desktops is technically impossible, but they literally wrote me that they have no plans to investigate the possibility of offering that. This is officially the plan for the permanent solution.
    - kranke155 10mo ago
      Permanence in software is measured in half decades.

tokai 11mo ago

With digital ID. They are releasing it in a couple of months. https://digst.dk/it-loesninger/den-digitale-identitetstegnebog/ https://digst.dk/it-loesninger/den-digitale-identitetstegneb...

stickfigure 11mo ago
I look forward to being able to buy your porn surfing habits on the darkweb in a few years.
- buellerbueller 11mo ago
  *everyone's The difference is meaningful. It's mostly prisoners dilemma. If only one persons porn habit is available thats bad for them. If everyones (legal) porn habits are available, then it gets normalized.
  - Forgeties79 11mo ago
    Normalized or not, the risk is you get something akin US drug enforcement: ignored for certain demographics, enforced for others. The ability to see someone's porn history is irrelevant until a government (or employer perhaps) wants to weaponize it. The problem isn't my peers, it's the people in power and how many of them lack any scruples.
    - buellerbueller 10mo ago
      Drugs are not legal; porn is.
  - Liquix 11mo ago
    this seems to run parallel to the "i have nothing to hide" / "well they have everyone's data, so who cares about mine" arguments. this is too narrow a view on the issue. the problem isn't that a colleague, acquaintance, neighbor, or government employee is going to snoop through your data. the problem is that once any government has everyone's data, they will feed it to PRISM-esque systems and use it to accurately model the population, granting the power to predict and shape future events.

Glyptodon 11mo ago

In the US they'd just make the platforms massively liable and let them worry about how to enforce. No idea what they'll do in another country.

stOneskull 11mo ago
we get to see how it works in australia next month. there's already stories of kids putting on fake mustaches to fool age-of-face recognition, which is one of the methods used. i think it'll get to: "these methods aren't good enough, we'll have to enforce digital id".
- Glyptodon 11mo ago
  Do they make parents liable or no? I'm somewhat curious about that as an option.

lapsis_beeftech 11mo ago

Child abuse is already illegal, the law needs to be expanded to cover these new forms of harm to children. It seems reasonable that I am held criminally accountable if I expose my child to harmful Internet content like social media.

rnimmer 11mo ago

It would be a lot simpler to only sell standard devices to adults. Kids should be using devices with curated access to specific tools and platforms meant for children.