9 ms·

I don’t see any mention of their explicit support for fascism on their homepage, can you justify this claim?

by phpnode 11mo ago

mort96 11mo ago
They haven't exactly been quiet about it. Here are some links; * https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1960029405067313546 https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1960029405067313546 * https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1975721241345728683 https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1975721241345728683 * https://bsky.app/profile/frame.work/post/3lvm6ahbrf22n https://bsky.app/profile/frame.work/post/3lvm6ahbrf22n * https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/2 https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-righ...
- Lammy 11mo ago
  Fascism is when Arch BTW
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- tomnipotent 11mo ago
  So in other words you've got nothing? There is literally nothing in your links that backs up your claims. So conferences in every western country should also not invite Chinese or Japanese speakers because they hold similar views to DHH? I'm so over this exhausting need to feel self-righteous.
  - mort96 11mo ago
    Hm? My claim is that they back Omarchy and DHH, I think my links back that up?
    - tomnipotent 11mo ago
      And that is not a transitive property which then means Framework supports fascism. The US buys from China, does that mean we support communism?
      - mort96 11mo ago
        International trade is extremely complex, funding and publicizing a project is not. Framework supports DHH, both financially and in terms of publicity. That's not something I wanna support.
        Alupis 11mo ago
        The mental gymnastics and contortions you are putting yourself through are quite stunning. You're finding associations that do not exist. I feel I'm staring at a wall strewn with thumb-tacked red yarn, linking all sorts of nonsense together while the creator steps back and exclaims "see, proof!". Framework makes hardware and software. If you're going to close yourself off to any product or organization that happens to have some users you disagree with - then you're not going to get very far in this world. This is a wild, and frankly unhealthy perspective to hold.
        mort96 11mo ago
        Please explain which associations I'm finding which do not exist. > If you're going to close yourself off to any product or organization that happens to have some users you disagree with I do not see where I mentioned Framework users. I care about the actions of the company. I care that they decide to support DHH, financially and through promoting his projects, and I care that they double down on their support in the face of push-back.
        tomnipotent 11mo ago
        > double down on their support in the face of push-back. Because the push-back was dumb. This idea what we have to isolate and attack every person that we don't agree with is dumb. That you consider DHH's position on immigration sufficient to label him a fascist is dumb. All of it is moral showboating with no actual substance, otherwise you'd put your money where you mouth is and not purchase from most companies in the world that work with actual fascist regimes.
    - phpnode 11mo ago
      Your claim was that they explicitly support fascism. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. What you seem to mean instead is: They financially support a popular open source project called Omarchy, which is built by DHH, and you believe DHH to be a fascist. You're welcome to your opinion, and I have zero insight into whether DHH is a fascist or not, but by no means is that explicit support for fascism! It's not just exaggeration, it's actually a lie. If you buy a machine from Framework you might indirectly support a project which is maintained by someone whose opinions you dislike. If you buy a Lenovo machine you will contribute to the revenue of an authoritarian government that will use some of that money to perpetuate human rights abuses against its own citizens, and maybe the citizens of your own country too one day. Which is the most moral choice here in your opinion?
      - mort96 11mo ago
        I didn't say they explicitly support fascism. I said they are explicitly political, and they are pro-fascism.
        phpnode 11mo ago
        Ok, sorry I misread what you wrote. The question stands though
        mort96 11mo ago
        I mean I already answered that, didn't I? I find it worse to buy from the explicitly political pro-fascist company than to buy from the "normal company" which just "incidentally" benefit fascist governments through their normal business operations. To exaggerate, we could imagine that there was an explicitly nazi computer manufacturer who put swastika stickers on their laptops and everything. When faced with the choice of Lenovo and this explicitly nazi manufacturer, I would probably choose the Lenovo, even though you could probably do the same consequentialist math and conclude that Lenovo does more actual harm through their utility to the CCP than what the tiny nazi computer company can do. I imagine you feel the same way. What Framework does is obviously way less egregious than my hypothetical example, but I'm still not comfortable associating with a company which so publicly funds DHH, for the same kind of reason that I would not be comfortable associating with the nazi computer company.
- Melonai 11mo ago
  I don't know... As someone who many people would characterize as "way too woke", this doesn't really quite ruin Framework for me (though I don't own any of their products). DHH is certainly an ass, and this is my first time reading about the racist stuff (before this I just found him generally extremely unlikable), but just general association with someone with shitty opinions doesn't fully ruin a project for me. I guess Omarchy is popular nowadays (I'm really not sure why, if someone really knows, please explain), people are going to want to use it on their Framework computers, ergo: Framework has a reason to cooperate with Omarchy developers so their devices work like the customers want them to, and I guess I'm fine with it even if DHH leaves a bad taste in my mouth... I guess I sort of feel similar in regards to suckless, I don't really like most of their projects, from what I've heard there are some abhorrent people involved, but I wouldn't really put blame on the distro maintainer that packages their projects for their users to use, I guess? Though, I definitely get why people might feel differently.
- lololb 11mo ago
  > bsky.app That explains everything, no need to dig deeper.
  - mort96 11mo ago
    I don't use Bluesky, I prefer Mastodon and frankly quite dislike Bluesky's faux-decentralization. But Framework uses Bluesky, so that's what I'm gonna link to when I wanna link to their posts.

I don’t see any mention of their explicit support for fascism on their homepage, can you justify this claim?

by phpnode 11mo ago

I don’t see any mention of their explicit support for fascism on their homepage, can you justify this claim?

mort96 11mo ago

They haven't exactly been quiet about it. Here are some links; * https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1960029405067313546 https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1960029405067313546 * https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1975721241345728683 https://x.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1975721241345728683 * https://bsky.app/profile/frame.work/post/3lvm6ahbrf22n https://bsky.app/profile/frame.work/post/3lvm6ahbrf22n * https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/2 https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-righ...

Lammy 11mo ago
Fascism is when Arch BTW
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
tomnipotent 11mo ago
So in other words you've got nothing? There is literally nothing in your links that backs up your claims. So conferences in every western country should also not invite Chinese or Japanese speakers because they hold similar views to DHH? I'm so over this exhausting need to feel self-righteous.
- mort96 11mo ago
  Hm? My claim is that they back Omarchy and DHH, I think my links back that up?
  - tomnipotent 11mo ago
    And that is not a transitive property which then means Framework supports fascism. The US buys from China, does that mean we support communism?
    - mort96 11mo ago
      International trade is extremely complex, funding and publicizing a project is not. Framework supports DHH, both financially and in terms of publicity. That's not something I wanna support.
      - Alupis 11mo ago
        The mental gymnastics and contortions you are putting yourself through are quite stunning. You're finding associations that do not exist. I feel I'm staring at a wall strewn with thumb-tacked red yarn, linking all sorts of nonsense together while the creator steps back and exclaims "see, proof!". Framework makes hardware and software. If you're going to close yourself off to any product or organization that happens to have some users you disagree with - then you're not going to get very far in this world. This is a wild, and frankly unhealthy perspective to hold.
        mort96 11mo ago
        Please explain which associations I'm finding which do not exist. > If you're going to close yourself off to any product or organization that happens to have some users you disagree with I do not see where I mentioned Framework users. I care about the actions of the company. I care that they decide to support DHH, financially and through promoting his projects, and I care that they double down on their support in the face of push-back.
        tomnipotent 11mo ago
        > double down on their support in the face of push-back. Because the push-back was dumb. This idea what we have to isolate and attack every person that we don't agree with is dumb. That you consider DHH's position on immigration sufficient to label him a fascist is dumb. All of it is moral showboating with no actual substance, otherwise you'd put your money where you mouth is and not purchase from most companies in the world that work with actual fascist regimes.
  - phpnode 11mo ago
    Your claim was that they explicitly support fascism. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. What you seem to mean instead is: They financially support a popular open source project called Omarchy, which is built by DHH, and you believe DHH to be a fascist. You're welcome to your opinion, and I have zero insight into whether DHH is a fascist or not, but by no means is that explicit support for fascism! It's not just exaggeration, it's actually a lie. If you buy a machine from Framework you might indirectly support a project which is maintained by someone whose opinions you dislike. If you buy a Lenovo machine you will contribute to the revenue of an authoritarian government that will use some of that money to perpetuate human rights abuses against its own citizens, and maybe the citizens of your own country too one day. Which is the most moral choice here in your opinion?
    - mort96 11mo ago
      I didn't say they explicitly support fascism. I said they are explicitly political, and they are pro-fascism.
      - phpnode 11mo ago
        Ok, sorry I misread what you wrote. The question stands though
        mort96 11mo ago
        I mean I already answered that, didn't I? I find it worse to buy from the explicitly political pro-fascist company than to buy from the "normal company" which just "incidentally" benefit fascist governments through their normal business operations. To exaggerate, we could imagine that there was an explicitly nazi computer manufacturer who put swastika stickers on their laptops and everything. When faced with the choice of Lenovo and this explicitly nazi manufacturer, I would probably choose the Lenovo, even though you could probably do the same consequentialist math and conclude that Lenovo does more actual harm through their utility to the CCP than what the tiny nazi computer company can do. I imagine you feel the same way. What Framework does is obviously way less egregious than my hypothetical example, but I'm still not comfortable associating with a company which so publicly funds DHH, for the same kind of reason that I would not be comfortable associating with the nazi computer company.
Melonai 11mo ago
I don't know... As someone who many people would characterize as "way too woke", this doesn't really quite ruin Framework for me (though I don't own any of their products). DHH is certainly an ass, and this is my first time reading about the racist stuff (before this I just found him generally extremely unlikable), but just general association with someone with shitty opinions doesn't fully ruin a project for me. I guess Omarchy is popular nowadays (I'm really not sure why, if someone really knows, please explain), people are going to want to use it on their Framework computers, ergo: Framework has a reason to cooperate with Omarchy developers so their devices work like the customers want them to, and I guess I'm fine with it even if DHH leaves a bad taste in my mouth... I guess I sort of feel similar in regards to suckless, I don't really like most of their projects, from what I've heard there are some abhorrent people involved, but I wouldn't really put blame on the distro maintainer that packages their projects for their users to use, I guess? Though, I definitely get why people might feel differently.
lololb 11mo ago
> bsky.app That explains everything, no need to dig deeper.
- mort96 11mo ago
  I don't use Bluesky, I prefer Mastodon and frankly quite dislike Bluesky's faux-decentralization. But Framework uses Bluesky, so that's what I'm gonna link to when I wanna link to their posts.