7 ms·

Many other countries have figured this out since the early 2000s, the US could do it as well if they wanted to.

by zegl 11mo ago

Thlom 11mo ago
We got pre-calculated returns as an alternative in the early 90's, by the time I got my first real job in the early 00's everyone used the pre-calculated one and just made changes as necessary. The first years I got my tax return in the mail and I think a few years I had to mail back a signed copy, but these days everything is digital and if you don't have to make any changes you don't have to do anything at all. Back then you also had to physically deliver your tax deduction card to your employer so they could deduct tax correctly, but these days that is also digital and salary systems just fetches the current deduction card before running salary jobs every month.
xnorswap 11mo ago
Sometimes I think the most exceptional thing about the USA is exceptionalism. Solutions to problems that are solved elsewhere are pushed back against, because "The USA is fundamentally different". Other countries have states too. The UK even has a country with an entirely different legal system (Scots Law), but we still make our collection of income tax system simple. A "complicated tax system" (if that is the root cause) is not something that is impossible to change. It is within the gift of the government(s) to change that. The lack of appetite for change is the result of decades of lobbying for the status quo to continue.
- graemep 11mo ago
  I half agree with you in that the UK makes the tax system administratively easy for most individual tax payers. That said, i think the system as a while is far too complicated. The application is simplified, but the rules are far too complex.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
- smaudet 11mo ago
  A 1040 form, while intimidating looking, is trivial to fill out. Once you've done it a couple times, it takes about 5 minutes. The only arcane bit is the law. The tax prep software knows which forms to use for which financial detail. If the law were written clearly, there would be no need at all for any special software, you could fill out a couple csv files and send an email... Even without the law, you are right, the actual flow of the tax prep software, for most people, is something a 16 year old could probably cobble together in an afternoon or two... however the problem then becomes how to provide a public service at low cost (to cover hosting/bandwidth costs) while govt funds are explicitly forbade to be used. To me the solution is obvious - a third party non govt player that receives specific allotment of funding, no questions asked. However, see the rampant issues with lobbyists mentioned in the article...
  - xnorswap 11mo ago
    "tax prep" isn't something I've had to ever think about for the UK system. I don't have to buy software, I don't have to pay anyone. I get my wage, it has my taxes taken out. That's it. I don't need to keep receipts, I don't need to work out how much mortgage interest I've paid, etc. My individual situation is calculated, by the tax authority and rolled into a "Tax code" which acts as the personal allowance. This then feeds into payroll which pay you net of tax. If at the end of the year, the tax authority (not you, this is automatic without a form being filled in) spots an over or under payment, they adjust your tax code for the next year to recoup or refund the difference. No cheques in the post, no forms to fill in. Just automatically happening in the background. Meanwhile for the US, I need to fill in 2555, 1040, and other forms. These aren't "5 minutes", they're slow, and more importantly error-prone, as they get you to add up different numbers rather than just asking for the information needed. No human should ever have to answer the series of questions ( this is legit, from the current 1040 ) : 24 Add lines 22 and 23. This is your total tax Where Line 22 is: 22 Subtract line 21 from line 18. If zero or less, enter -0- Line 21 is of course: 21 Add lines 19 and 20 And 18 is: 18 Add lines 16 and 17 Where 17 is: 17 Amount from Schedule 2, line 3 Where that is an entirely different form. The only purpose I can tell for this ridiculousness is to give scope for people to make mistakes. A form should collect raw information, not put the burden of calculation shouldn't be on the form-filler in a world where computers exist. The data is already on the form. What purpose can that solve except opening up a possibility for someone to accidentally commit tax fraud? You're missing the point suggesting it should be "a couple of CSV files". No, it shouldn't be any filing at all. Demand change, demand simplification of the tax system, and demand zero-filing solutions for regular employees.

Many other countries have figured this out since the early 2000s, the US could do it as well if they wanted to.

by zegl 11mo ago

Many other countries have figured this out since the early 2000s, the US could do it as well if they wanted to.

Thlom 11mo ago

We got pre-calculated returns as an alternative in the early 90's, by the time I got my first real job in the early 00's everyone used the pre-calculated one and just made changes as necessary. The first years I got my tax return in the mail and I think a few years I had to mail back a signed copy, but these days everything is digital and if you don't have to make any changes you don't have to do anything at all. Back then you also had to physically deliver your tax deduction card to your employer so they could deduct tax correctly, but these days that is also digital and salary systems just fetches the current deduction card before running salary jobs every month.

xnorswap 11mo ago

Sometimes I think the most exceptional thing about the USA is exceptionalism. Solutions to problems that are solved elsewhere are pushed back against, because "The USA is fundamentally different". Other countries have states too. The UK even has a country with an entirely different legal system (Scots Law), but we still make our collection of income tax system simple. A "complicated tax system" (if that is the root cause) is not something that is impossible to change. It is within the gift of the government(s) to change that. The lack of appetite for change is the result of decades of lobbying for the status quo to continue.

graemep 11mo ago
I half agree with you in that the UK makes the tax system administratively easy for most individual tax payers. That said, i think the system as a while is far too complicated. The application is simplified, but the rules are far too complex.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
smaudet 11mo ago
A 1040 form, while intimidating looking, is trivial to fill out. Once you've done it a couple times, it takes about 5 minutes. The only arcane bit is the law. The tax prep software knows which forms to use for which financial detail. If the law were written clearly, there would be no need at all for any special software, you could fill out a couple csv files and send an email... Even without the law, you are right, the actual flow of the tax prep software, for most people, is something a 16 year old could probably cobble together in an afternoon or two... however the problem then becomes how to provide a public service at low cost (to cover hosting/bandwidth costs) while govt funds are explicitly forbade to be used. To me the solution is obvious - a third party non govt player that receives specific allotment of funding, no questions asked. However, see the rampant issues with lobbyists mentioned in the article...
- xnorswap 11mo ago
  "tax prep" isn't something I've had to ever think about for the UK system. I don't have to buy software, I don't have to pay anyone. I get my wage, it has my taxes taken out. That's it. I don't need to keep receipts, I don't need to work out how much mortgage interest I've paid, etc. My individual situation is calculated, by the tax authority and rolled into a "Tax code" which acts as the personal allowance. This then feeds into payroll which pay you net of tax. If at the end of the year, the tax authority (not you, this is automatic without a form being filled in) spots an over or under payment, they adjust your tax code for the next year to recoup or refund the difference. No cheques in the post, no forms to fill in. Just automatically happening in the background. Meanwhile for the US, I need to fill in 2555, 1040, and other forms. These aren't "5 minutes", they're slow, and more importantly error-prone, as they get you to add up different numbers rather than just asking for the information needed. No human should ever have to answer the series of questions ( this is legit, from the current 1040 ) : 24 Add lines 22 and 23. This is your total tax Where Line 22 is: 22 Subtract line 21 from line 18. If zero or less, enter -0- Line 21 is of course: 21 Add lines 19 and 20 And 18 is: 18 Add lines 16 and 17 Where 17 is: 17 Amount from Schedule 2, line 3 Where that is an entirely different form. The only purpose I can tell for this ridiculousness is to give scope for people to make mistakes. A form should collect raw information, not put the burden of calculation shouldn't be on the form-filler in a world where computers exist. The data is already on the form. What purpose can that solve except opening up a possibility for someone to accidentally commit tax fraud? You're missing the point suggesting it should be "a couple of CSV files". No, it shouldn't be any filing at all. Demand change, demand simplification of the tax system, and demand zero-filing solutions for regular employees.