8 ms·

Federal law supersedes state law. ICE is simply enforcing federal immigration laws.

lenerdenator 1y ago
They're enforcing the law in profoundly illegal ways.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> ICE is simply enforcing federal immigration laws “From January to June, the average number of detainees per day in ICE custody rose 43 percent, to more than 57,000. But since July, when the [OBBA] funding was approved, the detainee population has increased only about 5 percent, to roughly 60,000, the latest statistics show. The stream of social-media clips showing masked federal agents kicking down doors, raiding Home Depot parking lots, and pulling people from their car have kept up the appearance of an ever-expanding campaign. ICE’s own data show that the agency’s buildup stalled over the summer” [1]. Meanwhile, with first-year deportations around 400,000 [2], they stand to match what Obama did in 2012 [3], despite spending $40 to 70bn, or 10 to 15x, more [4][5]. Instead of enforcing our immigration laws, ICE is involved in domestic policing, partisan intimidation and the illegal detention of American citizens. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/ice-immigration-detention-centers/684465/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/ice-imm... [2] https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/09/23/new-milestone-over-2-million-illegal-aliens-out-united-states-less-250-days https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/09/23/new-milestone-over-2-mil... [3] https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200109/110349/HHRG-116-GO00-20200109-SD007.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200109/110349/HHRG... [4] https://www.ice.gov/factsheets/budget2012 https://www.ice.gov/factsheets/budget2012 $5.8bn, FY2012, $8.2bn CPI adjusted to ‘25 [5] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-b... $45 to 75 billion under OBBBA
- theultdev 1y ago
  Difference between deportations under Obama vs Trump is they aren't coming right back over. Easy to inflate deportations when you catch the same fish and the river is flowing. Much slower when you dam off the river and have to dig the remaining catfish out of the mud.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Difference between deportations under Obama vs Trump is they aren't coming right back over “U.S. Border Patrol agents recorded nearly 238,000 apprehensions of migrants crossing the southern border illegally in fiscal year 2025” [1]. For 2012 to 2015, the chart shows about 360k, 420k, 480k and 330k, respectively. So ICE is spending $330 to 580 thousand dollars per additional Southwest border encounter in 2025 versus 2012. ($250 to 440 thousand if we average Obama’s second-term numbers.) These numbers 10x even San Francisco’s circa 2016 homeless-industrial profligacy [2]. Unless ICE is a ball of wormy corruption, they’re clearly not focused on immigration enforcement. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/10/icymi-illegal-crossings-along-u-s-mexico-border-plummet-to-lowest-annual-level-since-1970/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/10/icymi-illegal-cr... [2] https://www.hoover.org/research/despite-spending-11-billion-san-francisco-sees-its-homelessness-problems-spiral-out https://www.hoover.org/research/despite-spending-11-billion-...
    - theultdev 1y ago
      Interior enforcement is the focus currently. Crossings are lower overall due to securing of the border.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Interior enforcement is the focus currently If it is, it's being pursued corruptly and incompetently. From the top of the thread, ICE is spending boatloads more money to deport just about as many people as Obama did with a tenth of the budget [1]. Cross-border encounters are within 100,000, so the difference is not explained by recividism. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45506994 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45506994
nielsbot 1y ago
Do you agree enforcing immigration laws in this way is good and/or important? If so, can I ask why? What is our end goal?
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > can I ask why? Simply put, Americans gave Republicans a popular mandate to reduce illegal immigration. Much of this was economic: illegal immigrants dilute the labour force. Some, particularly among Latin Americans, rose from perceived injustice: it’s frustrating to go through the American immigration process only to see someone who skipped it live a similar life. Some, e.g. those focused on crime, were just racists. If ICE were simply enforcing the law, I don’t think there would be a national outcry. The problem is they aren’t. All while blowing the military budget of Saudi Arabia [1][2] to accomplish what Obama did with a tenth as much. [1] https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-defense-spending-to-78b-in-2025/ https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-d... [2] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-b...
  - apparent 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - coredog64 1y ago
      I don't have the links handy, but ISTR that both Obama and Biden counted turning folks away at the border as equivalent to a deportation. That juices the deportation metrics without being nearly so disruptive.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > much easier for Obama to do it because there were not throngs of protesters trying to stop his ICE officers Yes there were [1][2]. New York City Council members were arrested [3]. Obama's ICE was simply more focussed on detaining and deterring illegal immigrants because immigration was a political liability for him. For Trump, efficiacy isn't as important as messaging. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-protests-fasting/3148542.html https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-pro... [2] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/2118953/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/211895...
nulbyte 1y ago
I don't know why this was flagged. It may be wrong, but I think it worth discussing to correct. Not all of Federal law supersedes state law. The Tenth Amendment clarifies: > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. If it's not given to the federal government to regulate, the federal government can't regulate it.
- anigbrowl 1y ago
  It hasn't been flagged.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Federal law supersedes state law It does. That doesn’t mean federal agents supersede state law. California restricted civil arrests at its courts [1]. The Congress can pass a law superseding this. What ICE can’t unilaterally do, legally, is ignore it. They have, the same as they’ve ignored federal court orders. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB668 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
- theultdev 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > I'd imagine the California arrest restriction at it's courts is not constitutional as it conflicts with enforcement of existing federal immigration laws Preëmption is about conflicts of laws [1]. You’d need statute giving ICE the power to enforce its will in state courthouses to preëmpt California law. > Even if it's for cheap labor, Democrats I live in a red state. We started to see ICE enforcement and then our Senators told them to fuck off. To the extent we have a safe zone from immigration enforcement, it's in Republican economic strongholds [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ice-walks-back-limits-raids-targeting-farms-restaurants-hotels-2025-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ice-walks-back-limits-raids...
    - stackskipton 1y ago
      >You’d need statute giving ICE the power to enforce its will in state courthouses to preempt California law. Legally, it's up for debate on how much power localities can regulate Federal Law Enforcement operations. Federal Government takes the view that it's restrictions on operations by states is almost zero. There is 9th Circuit Ruling that says states can if "a federal officer [must do] no more than is necessary and proper in the performance of his duty" but that's pretty untested ruling. States are loath to attempt to regulate Federal Law Enforcement by running it up the courts since their worry is it hits SCOTUS and they come back with "States have no power, LOLZ"

They're enforcing the law in profoundly illegal ways.

> ICE is simply enforcing federal immigration laws “From January to June, the average number of detainees per day in ICE custody rose 43 percent, to more than 57,000. But since July, when the [OBBA] funding was approved, the detainee population has increased only about 5 percent, to roughly 60,000, the latest statistics show. The stream of social-media clips showing masked federal agents kicking down doors, raiding Home Depot parking lots, and pulling people from their car have kept up the appearance of an ever-expanding campaign. ICE’s own data show that the agency’s buildup stalled over the summer” [1]. Meanwhile, with first-year deportations around 400,000 [2], they stand to match what Obama did in 2012 [3], despite spending $40 to 70bn, or 10 to 15x, more [4][5]. Instead of enforcing our immigration laws, ICE is involved in domestic policing, partisan intimidation and the illegal detention of American citizens. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/ice-immigration-detention-centers/684465/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/ice-imm... [2] https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/09/23/new-milestone-over-2-million-illegal-aliens-out-united-states-less-250-days https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/09/23/new-milestone-over-2-mil... [3] https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200109/110349/HHRG-116-GO00-20200109-SD007.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200109/110349/HHRG... [4] https://www.ice.gov/factsheets/budget2012 https://www.ice.gov/factsheets/budget2012 $5.8bn, FY2012, $8.2bn CPI adjusted to ‘25 [5] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-b... $45 to 75 billion under OBBBA

theultdev 1y ago
Difference between deportations under Obama vs Trump is they aren't coming right back over. Easy to inflate deportations when you catch the same fish and the river is flowing. Much slower when you dam off the river and have to dig the remaining catfish out of the mud.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Difference between deportations under Obama vs Trump is they aren't coming right back over “U.S. Border Patrol agents recorded nearly 238,000 apprehensions of migrants crossing the southern border illegally in fiscal year 2025” [1]. For 2012 to 2015, the chart shows about 360k, 420k, 480k and 330k, respectively. So ICE is spending $330 to 580 thousand dollars per additional Southwest border encounter in 2025 versus 2012. ($250 to 440 thousand if we average Obama’s second-term numbers.) These numbers 10x even San Francisco’s circa 2016 homeless-industrial profligacy [2]. Unless ICE is a ball of wormy corruption, they’re clearly not focused on immigration enforcement. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/10/icymi-illegal-crossings-along-u-s-mexico-border-plummet-to-lowest-annual-level-since-1970/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/10/icymi-illegal-cr... [2] https://www.hoover.org/research/despite-spending-11-billion-san-francisco-sees-its-homelessness-problems-spiral-out https://www.hoover.org/research/despite-spending-11-billion-...
  - theultdev 1y ago
    Interior enforcement is the focus currently. Crossings are lower overall due to securing of the border.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Interior enforcement is the focus currently If it is, it's being pursued corruptly and incompetently. From the top of the thread, ICE is spending boatloads more money to deport just about as many people as Obama did with a tenth of the budget [1]. Cross-border encounters are within 100,000, so the difference is not explained by recividism. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45506994 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45506994

nielsbot 1y ago

Do you agree enforcing immigration laws in this way is good and/or important? If so, can I ask why? What is our end goal?

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> can I ask why? Simply put, Americans gave Republicans a popular mandate to reduce illegal immigration. Much of this was economic: illegal immigrants dilute the labour force. Some, particularly among Latin Americans, rose from perceived injustice: it’s frustrating to go through the American immigration process only to see someone who skipped it live a similar life. Some, e.g. those focused on crime, were just racists. If ICE were simply enforcing the law, I don’t think there would be a national outcry. The problem is they aren’t. All while blowing the military budget of Saudi Arabia [1][2] to accomplish what Obama did with a tenth as much. [1] https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-defense-spending-to-78b-in-2025/ https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-d... [2] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-b...
- apparent 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - coredog64 1y ago
    I don't have the links handy, but ISTR that both Obama and Biden counted turning folks away at the border as equivalent to a deportation. That juices the deportation metrics without being nearly so disruptive.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > much easier for Obama to do it because there were not throngs of protesters trying to stop his ICE officers Yes there were [1][2]. New York City Council members were arrested [3]. Obama's ICE was simply more focussed on detaining and deterring illegal immigrants because immigration was a political liability for him. For Trump, efficiacy isn't as important as messaging. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-protests-fasting/3148542.html https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-pro... [2] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/2118953/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/211895...

nulbyte 1y ago

I don't know why this was flagged. It may be wrong, but I think it worth discussing to correct. Not all of Federal law supersedes state law. The Tenth Amendment clarifies: > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. If it's not given to the federal government to regulate, the federal government can't regulate it.

anigbrowl 1y ago
It hasn't been flagged.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Federal law supersedes state law It does. That doesn’t mean federal agents supersede state law. California restricted civil arrests at its courts [1]. The Congress can pass a law superseding this. What ICE can’t unilaterally do, legally, is ignore it. They have, the same as they’ve ignored federal court orders. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB668 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

theultdev 1y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > I'd imagine the California arrest restriction at it's courts is not constitutional as it conflicts with enforcement of existing federal immigration laws Preëmption is about conflicts of laws [1]. You’d need statute giving ICE the power to enforce its will in state courthouses to preëmpt California law. > Even if it's for cheap labor, Democrats I live in a red state. We started to see ICE enforcement and then our Senators told them to fuck off. To the extent we have a safe zone from immigration enforcement, it's in Republican economic strongholds [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ice-walks-back-limits-raids-targeting-farms-restaurants-hotels-2025-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ice-walks-back-limits-raids...
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    >You’d need statute giving ICE the power to enforce its will in state courthouses to preempt California law. Legally, it's up for debate on how much power localities can regulate Federal Law Enforcement operations. Federal Government takes the view that it's restrictions on operations by states is almost zero. There is 9th Circuit Ruling that says states can if "a federal officer [must do] no more than is necessary and proper in the performance of his duty" but that's pretty untested ruling. States are loath to attempt to regulate Federal Law Enforcement by running it up the courts since their worry is it hits SCOTUS and they come back with "States have no power, LOLZ"