7 ms·

even if it was true, and the charities say it is not, would that make it OK to starve the people of Gaza?

by abdulhaq 1y ago

_DeadFred_ 1y ago
[flagged]
- abdulhaq 1y ago
  Ethnic cleansing is deeply wrong, starvation as a tactic of war is horribly wrong, we all know what's happening, please have some respect for peoples' intelligence.
  - nostrebored 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - abdulhaq 1y ago
      Fortunately the world has woken up and the coming generation sees the truth.
    - etchalon 1y ago
      Palestinian children are not paragliding in and murdering people. Even if they could, they're too malnourished to do so.
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        [flagged]
    - potatototoo99 1y ago
      All the more reason they shouldn't support doing it to others, and yet many do. And population growth looks the same everywhere in the world: the poorer the country, with less access to health care, less job security, independence and opportunities for women, the higher the birth rate.
  - mielioort 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    Ethnic cleansing is deeply wrong. Starvation as a tactic of war is horrible and evil. But it doesn't sound like people here do know what is happening. The CNN article gives the low calorie consumption amount as 1400. 1400 was a specific time/event and the worst case CNN listed. The US, in post war Germany, doing it 'the right way' according to history, targeted (so many received lower) 1500 calories a day. Or 1000 a day when airdropped. According to the CNN article, Israel's action during an ongoing conflict is about par with how the US did it for years in post war Germany. And remember Germany is much larger than Gaza, so people had much larger distances to cover. Those that couldn't be reached received airlifts that only targeted 1000 calories per day. War sucks. It sucks that the government of Gaza chose to start a war. What we are seeing is the impacts of that. And it is awful. But it's also in line with the conditions in post WW2 Germany, arguable one of the best historical treatments of an aggressor by victors over it. Germany isn't referred to as a starvation, but as a successful reconstruction. It is the 'norm' to which people speak when they speak of how to treat an aggressor population when they lose to victors. It is the literal 'norm' that people are calling for in Gaza. I only looked into it because people here were pointing to it as how Israel should be acting in Gaza on last weeks Gaza story. And I was surprised to find that Israel is acting within that established norm that people here were calling for just last week (until I looked up what the norm/numbers were and brought those facts into the discussion).
    - yibg 1y ago
      I'm not sure why this is important to the discussion. The important question is: are people in Gaza starving or not? If they are, I couldn't care less what we did during WW2. Secondarily, just because there was a guideline during WW2 that was deemed "the right way", it's the result that counts. Were people starving in Germany post WW2? If so that was wrong then too.
      - hdlothia 1y ago
        [flagged]
      - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        The Red Cross sets a floor of 1500 calories within the USA, lower than the floor Israel sets for Gaza. Does the Red Cross starve American's/use food as a weapon? https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/2022-09/Mass%20Care%20Feeding%20Appendix%20%282020%29.pdf https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/202... The UN itself has cut food distribution/caloric intake in Kenya (in need in huge part because of war refugees from Sudan) in half, is the UN using food as a weapon? The UN is saying it wants to provide aid at a much higher level to the people of Gaza than it provides to the people in Kenya.
- hebelehubele 1y ago
  Distribution points are hours of walking away from the majority of Gazans. Then you have armed forces shooting people seeking food. From the article: https://imgur.com/a/rqW5m3w https://imgur.com/a/rqW5m3w
  - nielsbot 1y ago
    And the GHF isn't even a real aid distribution NGO. Those exist! They're experts at this. Let them in.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  The Allied occupying powers tried as hard as they could to get food into Germany. Israel is intentionally blocking food from getting onto Gaza. There's a massive difference. > War sucks. That's an awfully glib way of justifying deliberately starving a civilian population. Saying "war sucks" doesn't make it okay to commit war crimes.
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - potatototoo99 1y ago
      The allies' crimes were 80 years ago. Israel's crimes are ongoing.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - yibg 1y ago
      I don't quite understand why you keep pointing to post WW2 as a justification. For 1 we should be looking at results and the situation on the ground, not the guidelines for what's "the proper way to do things". Were people in Germany starving or not, are people in Gaza starving or not? If the answer to either is yes, then it is / was a problem. Secondly, what we consider ok changes over time. Go back far enough and killing prisoners, taking civilians as slaves etc were all considered ok. We frown on those now.
      - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        The Gaza thread on HN last week was talking about how Israel needed to fit to norms. That Israel needed to be like the US in Germany. Which is what got me looking into numbers. I think it's relevant as the Allies in Germany are where the current norms come from. The Red Cross considers 1500 the floor for the US: https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/2022-09/Mass%20Care%20Feeding%20Appendix%20%282020%29.pdf https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/202... not that much to the minimal amount of 1400 the CNN article found occurring. Horrible I agree, but not that far off from the Red Cross floor for aid distribution with the USA. The UN provides much less calories (currently 552 to refugees from Sudan's war) yet says it can provide more than Israel in aid Gaza. Is the UN anti Sudanese/Kenyans because it claims to have food for 2 million on hand yet won't feed the starving 800,000 in Kenya? If it has food for Gaza's 2 million that is isn't giving out, how can it justify not giving at least part of that to the smaller 800,000 war refugees in Kenya? The UN itself says it's a crime not to give out food in those higher quantities if there are stocks of it. The UN has stocks. The UN does not give those stocks out to those in need, only giving 552 calories.
- quantified 1y ago
  If that's true, they are doing their best to ensure it's not working. Maybe Israel should airlift it over populated areas.
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    The USA only target 1000 calories per day for airlifted populations in post war Germany. The CNN article lists 1400 as the low calories intake. So Gaza is still 400 calories a day above 'doing it the right way' post war German reconstruction numbers for hard to reach areas. According to the article 1400 calories are the number people are actually consuming, not unavailable to them. It is in the CNN article all this discussion is about.
    - quantified 1y ago
      Those are just published numbers. Doesn't matter if they're placed where they can't be gotten.
- yibg 1y ago
  1. The "war" did not start on Oct 7. 2. Even if a country's government starts a war, that doesn't not justify war crimes. This is why they're called war crimes. 3. Pointing to what allies did 70+ years ago doesn't mean anything.
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    The source of the food scarcity being discussed started on Oct 7th though when the government of Gaza chose to kill over 1000 people, maim/injure/torture/rape thousands more, and kidnap many (including the approx. 6 year old girl they posted videos on the internet of themselves kidnapping from her house, they were so proud they posted video of kidnapping a little girl from her home). That all happened starting Oct 7th.

even if it was true, and the charities say it is not, would that make it OK to starve the people of Gaza?

_DeadFred_ 1y ago

[flagged]

abdulhaq 1y ago
Ethnic cleansing is deeply wrong, starvation as a tactic of war is horribly wrong, we all know what's happening, please have some respect for peoples' intelligence.
- nostrebored 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - abdulhaq 1y ago
    Fortunately the world has woken up and the coming generation sees the truth.
  - etchalon 1y ago
    Palestinian children are not paragliding in and murdering people. Even if they could, they're too malnourished to do so.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      [flagged]
  - potatototoo99 1y ago
    All the more reason they shouldn't support doing it to others, and yet many do. And population growth looks the same everywhere in the world: the poorer the country, with less access to health care, less job security, independence and opportunities for women, the higher the birth rate.
- mielioort 1y ago
  [flagged]
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  Ethnic cleansing is deeply wrong. Starvation as a tactic of war is horrible and evil. But it doesn't sound like people here do know what is happening. The CNN article gives the low calorie consumption amount as 1400. 1400 was a specific time/event and the worst case CNN listed. The US, in post war Germany, doing it 'the right way' according to history, targeted (so many received lower) 1500 calories a day. Or 1000 a day when airdropped. According to the CNN article, Israel's action during an ongoing conflict is about par with how the US did it for years in post war Germany. And remember Germany is much larger than Gaza, so people had much larger distances to cover. Those that couldn't be reached received airlifts that only targeted 1000 calories per day. War sucks. It sucks that the government of Gaza chose to start a war. What we are seeing is the impacts of that. And it is awful. But it's also in line with the conditions in post WW2 Germany, arguable one of the best historical treatments of an aggressor by victors over it. Germany isn't referred to as a starvation, but as a successful reconstruction. It is the 'norm' to which people speak when they speak of how to treat an aggressor population when they lose to victors. It is the literal 'norm' that people are calling for in Gaza. I only looked into it because people here were pointing to it as how Israel should be acting in Gaza on last weeks Gaza story. And I was surprised to find that Israel is acting within that established norm that people here were calling for just last week (until I looked up what the norm/numbers were and brought those facts into the discussion).
  - yibg 1y ago
    I'm not sure why this is important to the discussion. The important question is: are people in Gaza starving or not? If they are, I couldn't care less what we did during WW2. Secondarily, just because there was a guideline during WW2 that was deemed "the right way", it's the result that counts. Were people starving in Germany post WW2? If so that was wrong then too.
    - hdlothia 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
      The Red Cross sets a floor of 1500 calories within the USA, lower than the floor Israel sets for Gaza. Does the Red Cross starve American's/use food as a weapon? https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/2022-09/Mass%20Care%20Feeding%20Appendix%20%282020%29.pdf https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/202... The UN itself has cut food distribution/caloric intake in Kenya (in need in huge part because of war refugees from Sudan) in half, is the UN using food as a weapon? The UN is saying it wants to provide aid at a much higher level to the people of Gaza than it provides to the people in Kenya.
hebelehubele 1y ago
Distribution points are hours of walking away from the majority of Gazans. Then you have armed forces shooting people seeking food. From the article: https://imgur.com/a/rqW5m3w https://imgur.com/a/rqW5m3w
- nielsbot 1y ago
  And the GHF isn't even a real aid distribution NGO. Those exist! They're experts at this. Let them in.
DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
The Allied occupying powers tried as hard as they could to get food into Germany. Israel is intentionally blocking food from getting onto Gaza. There's a massive difference. > War sucks. That's an awfully glib way of justifying deliberately starving a civilian population. Saying "war sucks" doesn't make it okay to commit war crimes.
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - potatototoo99 1y ago
    The allies' crimes were 80 years ago. Israel's crimes are ongoing.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - yibg 1y ago
    I don't quite understand why you keep pointing to post WW2 as a justification. For 1 we should be looking at results and the situation on the ground, not the guidelines for what's "the proper way to do things". Were people in Germany starving or not, are people in Gaza starving or not? If the answer to either is yes, then it is / was a problem. Secondly, what we consider ok changes over time. Go back far enough and killing prisoners, taking civilians as slaves etc were all considered ok. We frown on those now.
    - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
      The Gaza thread on HN last week was talking about how Israel needed to fit to norms. That Israel needed to be like the US in Germany. Which is what got me looking into numbers. I think it's relevant as the Allies in Germany are where the current norms come from. The Red Cross considers 1500 the floor for the US: https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/2022-09/Mass%20Care%20Feeding%20Appendix%20%282020%29.pdf https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/202... not that much to the minimal amount of 1400 the CNN article found occurring. Horrible I agree, but not that far off from the Red Cross floor for aid distribution with the USA. The UN provides much less calories (currently 552 to refugees from Sudan's war) yet says it can provide more than Israel in aid Gaza. Is the UN anti Sudanese/Kenyans because it claims to have food for 2 million on hand yet won't feed the starving 800,000 in Kenya? If it has food for Gaza's 2 million that is isn't giving out, how can it justify not giving at least part of that to the smaller 800,000 war refugees in Kenya? The UN itself says it's a crime not to give out food in those higher quantities if there are stocks of it. The UN has stocks. The UN does not give those stocks out to those in need, only giving 552 calories.
quantified 1y ago
If that's true, they are doing their best to ensure it's not working. Maybe Israel should airlift it over populated areas.
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  The USA only target 1000 calories per day for airlifted populations in post war Germany. The CNN article lists 1400 as the low calories intake. So Gaza is still 400 calories a day above 'doing it the right way' post war German reconstruction numbers for hard to reach areas. According to the article 1400 calories are the number people are actually consuming, not unavailable to them. It is in the CNN article all this discussion is about.
  - quantified 1y ago
    Those are just published numbers. Doesn't matter if they're placed where they can't be gotten.
yibg 1y ago
1. The "war" did not start on Oct 7. 2. Even if a country's government starts a war, that doesn't not justify war crimes. This is why they're called war crimes. 3. Pointing to what allies did 70+ years ago doesn't mean anything.
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  The source of the food scarcity being discussed started on Oct 7th though when the government of Gaza chose to kill over 1000 people, maim/injure/torture/rape thousands more, and kidnap many (including the approx. 6 year old girl they posted videos on the internet of themselves kidnapping from her house, they were so proud they posted video of kidnapping a little girl from her home). That all happened starting Oct 7th.