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> UK libel law routinely covers up all sorts of things which the public would benefit from having revealed, simply by the threat of an expensive lawsuit. It mak

by abxyz 1y ago

> UK libel law routinely covers up all sorts of things which the public would benefit from having revealed, simply by the threat of an expensive lawsuit. It makes investigative journalism really uneconomic. No. The deference people have to the law as some sort of all knowing all powerful magic spell that can be cast to force silence at any time is to blame. Libel is publishing something you know to be untrue. The truth cannot be libel. If you want to speak the truth, if you want to act in service of the greater good, you must take the risk that you will attract attention from people who do not want you to speak the truth. And those people may use whatever power they have to suppress you, whether that's judicial or extrajudicial. That's not caused by any specific legal system, it's how people behave. Investigative journalism is uneconomic the world over. The U.K. has some of the best investigative journalism in the world. The U.K. legal system is far from perfect, but it is wrong to say that in this case, the U.K.'s libel laws (for all their flaws) kept this information secret. The irony is that the greatest suppressor of the truth is comments like yours which scare people into silence about the truth.

pjc50 1y ago
https://www.msrs.co.uk/the-libel-labyrinth-navigating-the-twists-turns-of-legal-costs/ https://www.msrs.co.uk/the-libel-labyrinth-navigating-the-tw... > The costs in this case were significant, with Vardy being ordered to pay a substantial proportion of Rooney’s legal fees. Initially, the court ordered Vardy to pay £1.5 million in costs, earlier this month, it was revealed that Vardy had been ordered to pay an additional £100,000, bringing the total to £1.6 million. https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/news/noel-clarke-ordered-to-pay-the-guardians-costs-of-defending-his-libel-action/ https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/news/noel-clarke-ordered-to-pay-... > In August, after a six week trial, the High Court upheld the Guardian’s defences of truth and public interest speech. > The trial judge, Steyn J, has now ordered Mr Clarke to pay £3m on account within 28 days, in respect of a likely eventual costs liability of over £6m. Those are cases where the defence won. But in those cases, (a) they have to front the legal fees themselves for a period of several years during the action and (b) there is a real risk that the person who filed the libel action may not be able to pay it. It very risky for an individual to defend a libel action, so almost everyone folds instantly on receiving a letter, or settles. An exception: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_v_Hopkins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_v_Hopkins - peak Twitter, sadly. Fortunately in this case justice prevailed and Katie Hopkins lost her house and life savings.
- closewith 1y ago
  Yes, I once made a bug report based to a client's supplier (overly permissive API endpoint was leading user data) and became the subject of the a spurious defamation letter. It was obviously unwinnable on the supplier's part, never went past solicitor's letters, and still cost high four figures to defend. Nothing like some of the real horror stories, but still a significant chilling effect.
  - abxyz 1y ago
    > ...and still cost high four figures to defend You do not need to "defend" against a "spurious defamation letter". The (very profitable) business of sending legal letters is based on the misunderstanding of the law that is perpetuated online. Legal letters are to law firms what bandwidth is to cloud hosting providers: free money.
    - krageon 1y ago
      Bandwidth isn't free to a cloud hosting provider in any real sense of the word. It's not priced in relation to cost, but it definitely does cost
    - closewith 1y ago
      In the UK, under the UK Civil Procedure Rules, you are expected to engage in the Pre-Action Protocol and provide a substantive response within 14 days, and failure to do so can effect you credibility and standing in court. So you do not have to respond, but not doing so risks sanction from the court for non-engagement.
      - abxyz 1y ago
        You're proving my point. You are catastrophising. A response to a "spurious defamation letter" does not cost "high four figures". Substantive does not refer to the cost of the response. Substantive means that it addresses the substance of the complaint. The "high four figures" you spent for a lawyer to respond (I disagree with the word "defend") to a legal threat was unnecessary. You paid a bunch of money for some low-paid legal assistants to fill out a template, and then a high-paid solicitor to sign off on it. As an individual, you can respond substantively to a legal threat for free. And even if you choose not to respond, courts are not punitive, the standard that courts hold individuals to are different to the standards they hold law firms to. A court will not rule in a claimant's favour in a libel case because an individual didn't follow procedure correctly. If you, as an individual, make a truthful statement about A Big Corporation and A Big Corporation spends £100,000 on a team of lawyers to write an angry letter to you demanding you retract, a simple single-sentence self-composed response of "The statement is true, I will not retract." is substantive. Despite what catastrophisers like yourself (catastrophisers who are encouraged by participants in the legal system who profit from this misapprehension) might suggest, civil courts are interested in adjudicating fairness, not trapping individuals in an endless legal quagmire. Can you share examples of individuals who have been sanctioned by the U.K. courts for anything that comes close to not engaging in the Pre-Action Protocol?
pessimizer 1y ago
Very easy to pop shit when you aren't risking your life and your family's future to protect the honor of JP Morgan. If everything goes perfectly, you've just lost your job and can't get hired because people don't want to hire a snitch; and if everything goes badly, it could go really badly. You might end up killed in a botched robbery, or thinking suicide will be the only way to save your family. I'm pretty sure the truth wasn't even a defense in UK libel law before 2013. It was entirely about whether you had the intent to harm someone. If you want to disrupt a thief's business, that's intent to harm someone, as a lot of people who wrote about quack doctors found out.
IAmBroom 1y ago
The irony is that libel doesn't just suppress individuals, but corporations that might be bankrupted by libel suits, such as reporting agencies. Nice ideals. I mean that. But pure altruism at great cost is a lot harder than you imagine.
Yossarrian22 1y ago
Then go publish an article about how much time the Prince of Wales spends with women that aren’t his wife
- abxyz 1y ago
  Sure, send me the evidence and I’ll publish it.

by abxyz 1y ago

pjc50 1y ago

https://www.msrs.co.uk/the-libel-labyrinth-navigating-the-twists-turns-of-legal-costs/ https://www.msrs.co.uk/the-libel-labyrinth-navigating-the-tw... > The costs in this case were significant, with Vardy being ordered to pay a substantial proportion of Rooney’s legal fees. Initially, the court ordered Vardy to pay £1.5 million in costs, earlier this month, it was revealed that Vardy had been ordered to pay an additional £100,000, bringing the total to £1.6 million. https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/news/noel-clarke-ordered-to-pay-the-guardians-costs-of-defending-his-libel-action/ https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/news/noel-clarke-ordered-to-pay-... > In August, after a six week trial, the High Court upheld the Guardian’s defences of truth and public interest speech. > The trial judge, Steyn J, has now ordered Mr Clarke to pay £3m on account within 28 days, in respect of a likely eventual costs liability of over £6m. Those are cases where the defence won. But in those cases, (a) they have to front the legal fees themselves for a period of several years during the action and (b) there is a real risk that the person who filed the libel action may not be able to pay it. It very risky for an individual to defend a libel action, so almost everyone folds instantly on receiving a letter, or settles. An exception: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_v_Hopkins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_v_Hopkins - peak Twitter, sadly. Fortunately in this case justice prevailed and Katie Hopkins lost her house and life savings.

closewith 1y ago
Yes, I once made a bug report based to a client's supplier (overly permissive API endpoint was leading user data) and became the subject of the a spurious defamation letter. It was obviously unwinnable on the supplier's part, never went past solicitor's letters, and still cost high four figures to defend. Nothing like some of the real horror stories, but still a significant chilling effect.
- abxyz 1y ago
  > ...and still cost high four figures to defend You do not need to "defend" against a "spurious defamation letter". The (very profitable) business of sending legal letters is based on the misunderstanding of the law that is perpetuated online. Legal letters are to law firms what bandwidth is to cloud hosting providers: free money.
  - krageon 1y ago
    Bandwidth isn't free to a cloud hosting provider in any real sense of the word. It's not priced in relation to cost, but it definitely does cost
  - closewith 1y ago
    In the UK, under the UK Civil Procedure Rules, you are expected to engage in the Pre-Action Protocol and provide a substantive response within 14 days, and failure to do so can effect you credibility and standing in court. So you do not have to respond, but not doing so risks sanction from the court for non-engagement.
    - abxyz 1y ago
      You're proving my point. You are catastrophising. A response to a "spurious defamation letter" does not cost "high four figures". Substantive does not refer to the cost of the response. Substantive means that it addresses the substance of the complaint. The "high four figures" you spent for a lawyer to respond (I disagree with the word "defend") to a legal threat was unnecessary. You paid a bunch of money for some low-paid legal assistants to fill out a template, and then a high-paid solicitor to sign off on it. As an individual, you can respond substantively to a legal threat for free. And even if you choose not to respond, courts are not punitive, the standard that courts hold individuals to are different to the standards they hold law firms to. A court will not rule in a claimant's favour in a libel case because an individual didn't follow procedure correctly. If you, as an individual, make a truthful statement about A Big Corporation and A Big Corporation spends £100,000 on a team of lawyers to write an angry letter to you demanding you retract, a simple single-sentence self-composed response of "The statement is true, I will not retract." is substantive. Despite what catastrophisers like yourself (catastrophisers who are encouraged by participants in the legal system who profit from this misapprehension) might suggest, civil courts are interested in adjudicating fairness, not trapping individuals in an endless legal quagmire. Can you share examples of individuals who have been sanctioned by the U.K. courts for anything that comes close to not engaging in the Pre-Action Protocol?

pessimizer 1y ago

Very easy to pop shit when you aren't risking your life and your family's future to protect the honor of JP Morgan. If everything goes perfectly, you've just lost your job and can't get hired because people don't want to hire a snitch; and if everything goes badly, it could go really badly. You might end up killed in a botched robbery, or thinking suicide will be the only way to save your family. I'm pretty sure the truth wasn't even a defense in UK libel law before 2013. It was entirely about whether you had the intent to harm someone. If you want to disrupt a thief's business, that's intent to harm someone, as a lot of people who wrote about quack doctors found out.

IAmBroom 1y ago

The irony is that libel doesn't just suppress individuals, but corporations that might be bankrupted by libel suits, such as reporting agencies. Nice ideals. I mean that. But pure altruism at great cost is a lot harder than you imagine.

Yossarrian22 1y ago

Then go publish an article about how much time the Prince of Wales spends with women that aren’t his wife

abxyz 1y ago
Sure, send me the evidence and I’ll publish it.