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> I am NOT asking for the removal of the sanctions targeted at the Islamic Republic of Iran. All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians, so that they may ove

> I am NOT asking for the removal of the sanctions targeted at the Islamic Republic of Iran. All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians, so that they may overthrow their government. Just a bullying tactic by the US with zero moral justifications, despite how it's framed by the media.

tmnvdb 1y ago
Citation needed. As far is I know this is simply false. Different sanctions have different goals. Regime change is very rarely a goal. Often it is to reduce economic growth to keep/make the country weak, or to achieve some other goal. See for example sactions on India, which are definitely not meant to overthrow the indian government.
- theshrike79 1y ago
  Sometimes it's both. "Your country is sanctioned because your government is being a global ass, wink-wink" Implying that a change in government will lift the sanctions.
benced 1y ago
Seems like the moral justification would be to encourage overthrowing the government? The literature on sanction is mixed but zero is overstating it.
- sorushn 1y ago
  Which is also not true, as we're seeing in Syria.
kennywinker 1y ago
So, we should just do business as usual with countries committing war crimes or genocide? Aggressors in war, users of chemical weapons on their own people? I’m aware there are consequences to sanctions, and the way they are implemented is often half-assed or hypocritical (e.g. the way that russian oil still flows) but to drop all sanctions… Is that not like saying boycotts hurt employees who had nothing to do with the decisions so we should never boycott?
- sorushn 1y ago
  > So, we should just do business as usual with countries committing war crimes or genocide? Aggressors in war, users of chemical weapons on their own people? That's what the US has been doing since forever, even actively participating in the war crimes. If you think any of the stated reasons for the sanctions are real, I have a bridge to sell you.
  - jazzyjackson 1y ago
    Other countries are perfectly welcome to sanction the USA, by all means tell me more about this bridge
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    > That's what the US has been doing since forever And you think this is a good thing? Like we should be consistent and support all war crimes instead of just some of them? Just because we do bad things, doesn’t make it right to do more bad things.
- eunos 1y ago
  Or moving towards a multipolar equilibrium so that a pole can't unilaterally decide about those.
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    What does that mean? Like in a practical sense - russia declares war on ukraine… next step is? Move towards a multipolar equilibrium? How? How long does that take. Yes ideally we’d live in a world where this bullshit doesn’t happen. But it does happen, so our choices are to respond with the tools we have NOW or not respond at all.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians Objectively untrue. Many of the Russian sanctions, for example, targeted Putin’s inner circle.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  They may not be normal civilians, but many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials, which does make them civilians. In other cases sanctions are targeted at government officials personally rather than the parts of government they influence, like targeting their side business, their stock, or their personal property. There are sanctions targeting governments specifically, but usually government sanctions also target civilians. You can't exactly expect a sanctioned government to be transparent, it'll hide its government business under company names if you let it.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials, which does make them civilians By that definition Putin is a civilian. More broadly: plenty of sanctions explicitly target military-only kit. Those are not “designed to hurt civilians,” though I guess a civilian working in a munitions factory might lose their job.
  - mschuster91 1y ago
    > but many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials That's the thing in a crony dictatorship: these people might not hold public office in name, but in practice they act under direct license, authority and orders of the dictator. We're already seeing this in Hungary, where close friends of the local de-facto-dictator Viktor Orban control almost all media and absolutely use that ownership to further entrench Orban's rule - it's hard to achieve political change when the media simply doesn't care about you. And now, we're seeing the beginnings in the US, just from another angle - public kowtowing and open extortion, such as with Jimmy Kimmel who got cancelled after a threat to block a corporate merger, and it's not the first time either. And no, the fact that Disney walked back after their stock price took a decent dip doesn't mean that this is the last time such an event will take place.
t1E9mE7JTRjf 1y ago
> All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians, so that they may overthrow their government. That requires some blind faith to believe. In that I don't think those applying them really expect overthrowing the government to result. I would guess sanctions are designed to hurt and weaken, to make them less of an adversary. Although that's a harder sell, so doesn't get presented that way.

tmnvdb 1y ago

Citation needed. As far is I know this is simply false. Different sanctions have different goals. Regime change is very rarely a goal. Often it is to reduce economic growth to keep/make the country weak, or to achieve some other goal. See for example sactions on India, which are definitely not meant to overthrow the indian government.

theshrike79 1y ago
Sometimes it's both. "Your country is sanctioned because your government is being a global ass, wink-wink" Implying that a change in government will lift the sanctions.

benced 1y ago

Seems like the moral justification would be to encourage overthrowing the government? The literature on sanction is mixed but zero is overstating it.

sorushn 1y ago
Which is also not true, as we're seeing in Syria.

kennywinker 1y ago

So, we should just do business as usual with countries committing war crimes or genocide? Aggressors in war, users of chemical weapons on their own people? I’m aware there are consequences to sanctions, and the way they are implemented is often half-assed or hypocritical (e.g. the way that russian oil still flows) but to drop all sanctions… Is that not like saying boycotts hurt employees who had nothing to do with the decisions so we should never boycott?

sorushn 1y ago
> So, we should just do business as usual with countries committing war crimes or genocide? Aggressors in war, users of chemical weapons on their own people? That's what the US has been doing since forever, even actively participating in the war crimes. If you think any of the stated reasons for the sanctions are real, I have a bridge to sell you.
- jazzyjackson 1y ago
  Other countries are perfectly welcome to sanction the USA, by all means tell me more about this bridge
- kennywinker 1y ago
  > That's what the US has been doing since forever And you think this is a good thing? Like we should be consistent and support all war crimes instead of just some of them? Just because we do bad things, doesn’t make it right to do more bad things.
eunos 1y ago
Or moving towards a multipolar equilibrium so that a pole can't unilaterally decide about those.
- kennywinker 1y ago
  What does that mean? Like in a practical sense - russia declares war on ukraine… next step is? Move towards a multipolar equilibrium? How? How long does that take. Yes ideally we’d live in a world where this bullshit doesn’t happen. But it does happen, so our choices are to respond with the tools we have NOW or not respond at all.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians Objectively untrue. Many of the Russian sanctions, for example, targeted Putin’s inner circle.

jeroenhd 1y ago
They may not be normal civilians, but many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials, which does make them civilians. In other cases sanctions are targeted at government officials personally rather than the parts of government they influence, like targeting their side business, their stock, or their personal property. There are sanctions targeting governments specifically, but usually government sanctions also target civilians. You can't exactly expect a sanctioned government to be transparent, it'll hide its government business under company names if you let it.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials, which does make them civilians By that definition Putin is a civilian. More broadly: plenty of sanctions explicitly target military-only kit. Those are not “designed to hurt civilians,” though I guess a civilian working in a munitions factory might lose their job.
- mschuster91 1y ago
  > but many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials That's the thing in a crony dictatorship: these people might not hold public office in name, but in practice they act under direct license, authority and orders of the dictator. We're already seeing this in Hungary, where close friends of the local de-facto-dictator Viktor Orban control almost all media and absolutely use that ownership to further entrench Orban's rule - it's hard to achieve political change when the media simply doesn't care about you. And now, we're seeing the beginnings in the US, just from another angle - public kowtowing and open extortion, such as with Jimmy Kimmel who got cancelled after a threat to block a corporate merger, and it's not the first time either. And no, the fact that Disney walked back after their stock price took a decent dip doesn't mean that this is the last time such an event will take place.

t1E9mE7JTRjf 1y ago

> All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians, so that they may overthrow their government. That requires some blind faith to believe. In that I don't think those applying them really expect overthrowing the government to result. I would guess sanctions are designed to hurt and weaken, to make them less of an adversary. Although that's a harder sell, so doesn't get presented that way.