6 ms·

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps o

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’s thoughts, the concealment of one’s opinions, the careful hiding of what one truly believes or feels. It is not considered a shame, still less a crime; it is, on the contrary, a virtue, a duty, and a necessity, imposed on everyone by the conditions of life. To practise ketmân is not merely permitted, it is commanded. It consists in never allowing oneself to appear as one is, but in always showing oneself otherwise; it is the art of presenting to each person the aspect that will please him most, of adopting his ideas, his tastes, his language, while inwardly remaining quite different. This perpetual exercise of disguise is carried out with a marvellous ease, and with a kind of pleasure in tricking others, which the Persians feel very keenly. They take delight in this ingenious hypocrisy; it is a game, a triumph of subtlety, in which the winner is the one who has best succeeded in hiding the truth.”

kleiba 1y ago
Sounds terrible. But in all fairness, it's not like pretending isn't part of everyday Western culture too.
- agobineau 1y ago
  the traditional persian conception is perhaps a more honest evaluation in the sense of ketman, cognitive dissonance is conscious and almost an indulgence. thus, a kind of internal dialectic forms, which is in its own way a deeper personal truth. the practicioner therefore sees every other persons hypocrisy, self-dishonesty, and their true self, and is not perhaps upset or disturbed by their external lies and internal true self, as they see human condition as a state of layered dialectics whereas the western conception of truth can emerge as a kind of delusion of the self. the honesty-striving self denies reality and becomes DECLARATIVE rather than OBSERVATIONAL of reality ,and is constantly outraged by what they perceive to be hypocrisy, deception, and so on
  - balamatom 1y ago
    What you write here is not unreasonable. What's kinda fucked up though is that the guy whose name you wear might not have been describing a "traditional persian conception" but a cognitive artifact produced by his own arrogance. You explain the underlying concept rather better than the tale you originally quoted, and I dare presume it is easier for one to be understood about such things when they are not explicitly sourcing their soundbites from authors liable to be judged as ethically compromised.
- everdrive 1y ago
  It's an interesting topic. We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. But, I'd argue that our quirk is that we constantly tell people to just be themselves, to be their "true selves," to be "true to themselves," etc. We say it incessantly and loudly. And then, in reality, it's often not what people actually want, and that sort of behavior is often punished. Again, I think we're quite different from the Iranian example, but the conflicting advice brings its own confusion.
  - OgsyedIE 1y ago
    One of the most prominent examples among many others of presenting as extreme a false persona in western culture is the phenomenon of "closeting" in right-wing communities. One example of a TV show on the topic, popularly regarded as hilarious and nauseating, has its own Wikipedia page [1] and a wide selection of reaction clips on YouTube. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Husband%27s_Not_Gay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Husband%27s_Not_Gay
  - philipwhiuk 1y ago
    > We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. Oh please. We call it classified information, to allow ourselves to just lie to people not in the clique.
  - smsm42 1y ago
    > We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. Of course we do. Just try to have a political debate in your work place (no, please don't) and you'd find out.
    - everdrive 1y ago
      Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I'm sort of under the impression that the Iranian concept applies broadly to most people. I agree with your counterpoint, but I think in America verboten topics are much more domain and context-specific. I think it depends on how tightly we want to define the context. Social pressure with regard to how someone feels or thinks is obviously a human universal.
  - 1y ago
jemfinch 1y ago
This sounds remarkably similar to the (western) Catholic theological concept of "mental reservation" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_reservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_reservation).
- FearNotDaniel 1y ago
  Not really: > Mental reservation, however, is regarded as unjustifiable without grave reason for withholding the truth. That sounds significantly different from a "perpetual exercise of disguise" that is considered "a virtue, a duty, and a necessity".
yk 1y ago
Pretty sure bullshitting is pretty universal. In particular the pattern were I, the mighty expert, insist that only I, the mighty expert, can decode the meaning of those deceptive others, and therefore you, the gullible rube, has to give me all your money so that I, the mighty expert, can keep you, the gullible rube, save from those deceptive foreigners.
- agobineau 1y ago
  i found it more interesting to consider through the perception of self-honesty or self-deception. or in this case, the llm inadvertently trained to conceal its intent to the user and rather to condition the user to the conclusion it truly wants rather than to answer directly
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    Right, like for example - if you ask an llm about islamic cultural practices it could mention “ketman”, instead of just calling them scheming liars. It’d be awful if llms were able to conceal their true intent like that.
    - agobineau 1y ago
      most likely to hypnotise you into buying twinkies when you ask for recipe or such
      - kennywinker 1y ago
        Right, as we know there are zero examples of llms being used to influence people’s politics… https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/elon-musk-updates-grok-ai-chatbot-to-eliminate-political-correctness/751267/ https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/elon-musk-updates-grok...
bobotowned 1y ago
Commander Hutchinson, is that you?
ivape 1y ago
Sounds very much like bubbles that indulge on inside jokes. In their universe, no one gets it but them, and they view themselves as connoisseurs of high art, the art itself being their own creation (indulge in one’s self). When you step out to interact with others, you act as if you and your kind are the only ones that have a clue, wink wink. Are you saying Persians are a bunch of stuck up Goth kids? Never underestimate a human’s ability to be an absolute teenager.
wishgreen 1y ago
Setting aside the obvious reverence for the father of the "Aryan master race" concept (Seriously, just pull up this guys Wikipedia -- first paragraph). Such a critique of Persian culture without any context is unjust. For nearly a whole millennia, the Persians have endured a never ending parade of invasion, destruction, and conquest. While most are aware of the notable events, i.e. - Rashidun Caliphate (636) - Mongols (1219) - Timurids (1370) What is less known is the centuries of endemic violence in the border regions, and the relentless assault on the Persian way of life and culture itself (including the centuries long conversion process to Islam). Yes, although there are brief periods of peace, e.g. under the Safavids, at this point Iran is settling in for a long period of population collapse, famine, and economic depression. In such a setting, I suppose it might make sense for a culture to develop such defense mechanisms for survival. On the bright side I suppose, these conditions also gives rise to one of the most influential literary and poetic traditions in world history -- i.e. Rumi, Hafez, Ferdowsi, etc. In some ways, this is one of the first instances of art as a form of subversive resistance, and also, indeed a cousin of tarof... While the Persians may have given it a name, let's not pretend they have the monopoly on deception/self-deception.
- burkaman 1y ago
  From Wikipedia: > He came to speak a "kitchen Persian" that allowed him to talk to Persians somewhat. (He was never fluent in Persian as he said he was.) Despite having some love for the Persians, Gobineau was shocked they lacked his racial prejudices and were willing to accept blacks as equals. He criticized Persian society for being too "democratic". Gobineau saw Persia as a land without a future destined to be conquered by the West sooner or later. For him this was a tragedy for the West. He believed Western men would all too easily be seduced by the beautiful Persian women causing more miscegenation to further "corrupt" the West. However, he was obsessed with ancient Persia, seeing in Achaemenid Persia a great and glorious Aryan civilization, now sadly gone. This was to preoccupy him for the rest of his life. The guy was a terrible person and a documented liar about his knowledge of Persia. Perhaps he had some conversations with locals who genuinely didn't understand why he hated black people, and he thought "ah, these clever Persians, so effortlessly deceiving me when they obviously must be as racist as I am".
esafak 1y ago
That's what happens when you don't have religious freedom.
- kennywinker 1y ago
  Where, and when, are you talking about? All over the christian west religious freedom has come and gone. The same can be said for the islamic world.
  - esafak 1y ago
    In Iran, and the rest of the Middle East. The West scores much higher in religious freedom. The difference is plain to see going from one to the other.
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      So you’re talking about now. Currently. But this concept is old. The quote from the guy who invented the concept of the “aryan master race”, de Gobineau, was from 1859. That’s just 7 years after the irish potato “famine”, when the english perpetrated a genocide against catholics in ireland. Very tolerant. Meanwhile, in 1859 in the ottoman empire - jews and christians were allowed to exist and believe what they wanted as long as they were loyal to the state and paid their special tax. Not exactly equal, but in 1859 i think i’d rather be catholic in iran than in ireland. Your theory that this concept comes from a lack of religious freedom doesn’t really hold up if you look beyond the current moment.
      - esafak 1y ago
        Iran/Persia was not part of the Ottoman Empire. They maintained a border. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zuhab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zuhab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars I agree that the Ottomans had more religious freedom- and certainly diversity. At least until the Enlightenment, which the Ottomans missed to their undoing.
jazzyjackson 1y ago
Sounds like something an autist would say in regard to any degree of social grace
a_e_k 1y ago
Sounds like a perfect recipe for the Abilene paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox

kleiba 1y ago

Sounds terrible. But in all fairness, it's not like pretending isn't part of everyday Western culture too.

agobineau 1y ago
the traditional persian conception is perhaps a more honest evaluation in the sense of ketman, cognitive dissonance is conscious and almost an indulgence. thus, a kind of internal dialectic forms, which is in its own way a deeper personal truth. the practicioner therefore sees every other persons hypocrisy, self-dishonesty, and their true self, and is not perhaps upset or disturbed by their external lies and internal true self, as they see human condition as a state of layered dialectics whereas the western conception of truth can emerge as a kind of delusion of the self. the honesty-striving self denies reality and becomes DECLARATIVE rather than OBSERVATIONAL of reality ,and is constantly outraged by what they perceive to be hypocrisy, deception, and so on
- balamatom 1y ago
  What you write here is not unreasonable. What's kinda fucked up though is that the guy whose name you wear might not have been describing a "traditional persian conception" but a cognitive artifact produced by his own arrogance. You explain the underlying concept rather better than the tale you originally quoted, and I dare presume it is easier for one to be understood about such things when they are not explicitly sourcing their soundbites from authors liable to be judged as ethically compromised.
everdrive 1y ago
It's an interesting topic. We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. But, I'd argue that our quirk is that we constantly tell people to just be themselves, to be their "true selves," to be "true to themselves," etc. We say it incessantly and loudly. And then, in reality, it's often not what people actually want, and that sort of behavior is often punished. Again, I think we're quite different from the Iranian example, but the conflicting advice brings its own confusion.
- OgsyedIE 1y ago
  One of the most prominent examples among many others of presenting as extreme a false persona in western culture is the phenomenon of "closeting" in right-wing communities. One example of a TV show on the topic, popularly regarded as hilarious and nauseating, has its own Wikipedia page [1] and a wide selection of reaction clips on YouTube. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Husband%27s_Not_Gay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Husband%27s_Not_Gay
- philipwhiuk 1y ago
  > We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. Oh please. We call it classified information, to allow ourselves to just lie to people not in the clique.
- smsm42 1y ago
  > We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. Of course we do. Just try to have a political debate in your work place (no, please don't) and you'd find out.
  - everdrive 1y ago
    Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I'm sort of under the impression that the Iranian concept applies broadly to most people. I agree with your counterpoint, but I think in America verboten topics are much more domain and context-specific. I think it depends on how tightly we want to define the context. Social pressure with regard to how someone feels or thinks is obviously a human universal.
- 1y ago

jemfinch 1y ago

This sounds remarkably similar to the (western) Catholic theological concept of "mental reservation" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_reservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_reservation).

FearNotDaniel 1y ago
Not really: > Mental reservation, however, is regarded as unjustifiable without grave reason for withholding the truth. That sounds significantly different from a "perpetual exercise of disguise" that is considered "a virtue, a duty, and a necessity".

yk 1y ago

Pretty sure bullshitting is pretty universal. In particular the pattern were I, the mighty expert, insist that only I, the mighty expert, can decode the meaning of those deceptive others, and therefore you, the gullible rube, has to give me all your money so that I, the mighty expert, can keep you, the gullible rube, save from those deceptive foreigners.

agobineau 1y ago
i found it more interesting to consider through the perception of self-honesty or self-deception. or in this case, the llm inadvertently trained to conceal its intent to the user and rather to condition the user to the conclusion it truly wants rather than to answer directly
- kennywinker 1y ago
  Right, like for example - if you ask an llm about islamic cultural practices it could mention “ketman”, instead of just calling them scheming liars. It’d be awful if llms were able to conceal their true intent like that.
  - agobineau 1y ago
    most likely to hypnotise you into buying twinkies when you ask for recipe or such
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      Right, as we know there are zero examples of llms being used to influence people’s politics… https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/elon-musk-updates-grok-ai-chatbot-to-eliminate-political-correctness/751267/ https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/elon-musk-updates-grok...

bobotowned 1y ago

Commander Hutchinson, is that you?

ivape 1y ago

Sounds very much like bubbles that indulge on inside jokes. In their universe, no one gets it but them, and they view themselves as connoisseurs of high art, the art itself being their own creation (indulge in one’s self). When you step out to interact with others, you act as if you and your kind are the only ones that have a clue, wink wink. Are you saying Persians are a bunch of stuck up Goth kids? Never underestimate a human’s ability to be an absolute teenager.

wishgreen 1y ago

Setting aside the obvious reverence for the father of the "Aryan master race" concept (Seriously, just pull up this guys Wikipedia -- first paragraph). Such a critique of Persian culture without any context is unjust. For nearly a whole millennia, the Persians have endured a never ending parade of invasion, destruction, and conquest. While most are aware of the notable events, i.e. - Rashidun Caliphate (636) - Mongols (1219) - Timurids (1370) What is less known is the centuries of endemic violence in the border regions, and the relentless assault on the Persian way of life and culture itself (including the centuries long conversion process to Islam). Yes, although there are brief periods of peace, e.g. under the Safavids, at this point Iran is settling in for a long period of population collapse, famine, and economic depression. In such a setting, I suppose it might make sense for a culture to develop such defense mechanisms for survival. On the bright side I suppose, these conditions also gives rise to one of the most influential literary and poetic traditions in world history -- i.e. Rumi, Hafez, Ferdowsi, etc. In some ways, this is one of the first instances of art as a form of subversive resistance, and also, indeed a cousin of tarof... While the Persians may have given it a name, let's not pretend they have the monopoly on deception/self-deception.

burkaman 1y ago
From Wikipedia: > He came to speak a "kitchen Persian" that allowed him to talk to Persians somewhat. (He was never fluent in Persian as he said he was.) Despite having some love for the Persians, Gobineau was shocked they lacked his racial prejudices and were willing to accept blacks as equals. He criticized Persian society for being too "democratic". Gobineau saw Persia as a land without a future destined to be conquered by the West sooner or later. For him this was a tragedy for the West. He believed Western men would all too easily be seduced by the beautiful Persian women causing more miscegenation to further "corrupt" the West. However, he was obsessed with ancient Persia, seeing in Achaemenid Persia a great and glorious Aryan civilization, now sadly gone. This was to preoccupy him for the rest of his life. The guy was a terrible person and a documented liar about his knowledge of Persia. Perhaps he had some conversations with locals who genuinely didn't understand why he hated black people, and he thought "ah, these clever Persians, so effortlessly deceiving me when they obviously must be as racist as I am".

esafak 1y ago

That's what happens when you don't have religious freedom.

kennywinker 1y ago
Where, and when, are you talking about? All over the christian west religious freedom has come and gone. The same can be said for the islamic world.
- esafak 1y ago
  In Iran, and the rest of the Middle East. The West scores much higher in religious freedom. The difference is plain to see going from one to the other.
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    So you’re talking about now. Currently. But this concept is old. The quote from the guy who invented the concept of the “aryan master race”, de Gobineau, was from 1859. That’s just 7 years after the irish potato “famine”, when the english perpetrated a genocide against catholics in ireland. Very tolerant. Meanwhile, in 1859 in the ottoman empire - jews and christians were allowed to exist and believe what they wanted as long as they were loyal to the state and paid their special tax. Not exactly equal, but in 1859 i think i’d rather be catholic in iran than in ireland. Your theory that this concept comes from a lack of religious freedom doesn’t really hold up if you look beyond the current moment.
    - esafak 1y ago
      Iran/Persia was not part of the Ottoman Empire. They maintained a border. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zuhab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zuhab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars I agree that the Ottomans had more religious freedom- and certainly diversity. At least until the Enlightenment, which the Ottomans missed to their undoing.

jazzyjackson 1y ago

Sounds like something an autist would say in regard to any degree of social grace

a_e_k 1y ago

Sounds like a perfect recipe for the Abilene paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox