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How do you feel about the bombing of Dresden in World War 2? If people like you were listened to back then, you would be speaking German right now and I wouldn'

by devzx 1y ago

How do you feel about the bombing of Dresden in World War 2? If people like you were listened to back then, you would be speaking German right now and I wouldn't be here.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
permo-w 1y ago
how does this follow?
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were destroyed without it being a genocide.
  - permo-w 1y ago
    and so were many British towns and cities. atrocity /= genocide. how does the speaking German or non-existence of the commenter follow?
    - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
      If we hadn't bombed these cities we might not have won the war. Arguably we didn't have to nuke Japan but chose to over the cost of the lives of our own soldiers (including my grandfather a marine in the pacific). War involves doing horrific things you don't want to do and wouldn't normally do (look at Israel's actions pre Oct 7th versus post, this sort of war is not the natural state for Israel). War requires you lean on the side of doing too much damage versus limiting your military actions. War requires you take maximal actions, unlike policing where we try to use minimal. If the US fought Japan how people want Israel to fight the government of Gaza, I would not exist, my grandfather would have died storming Japan. It would have been a more moral victory, but it is very hard for any society to choose sacrificing their 18 years olds in a conflict initiated by the other side, when war strategy dictates that other paths/actions be taken, paths with less of your 18 year olds dead and a higher chance of reaching your goals. War by it's naturing is fought maximally, not as a police action. This is also not a gentleman's war. A neighboring government supported by their citizens who joined in spontaneously, launched a surprise attack that killed 1000+, and indiscriminately maimed/raped/tortured thousands more, while broadcasting video of themselves kidnapping random 6 year old girls to the world, neighboring citizens who phoned home to their parents to brag 'I killed 10 jews today'. War sucks. War is horrific. Which is why it sucks Hamas, the government of Gaza, chose this war. Why it sucks Hamas structured things for the war to proceed, with maximal civilian damage and casualties. Why it sucks Hamas chose to use civilian hostages abducted during the murder/rape/maiming of thousands. No country can just let their citizens be abducted and held captive like Hamas choses to do, intentionally ratcheting up the pressure/tempo of the war that they initiated.
      - wqaatwt 1y ago
        But allies stopped bombing Germany after they occupied it? They had rather specific goals and were willing to directly occupy Germany at great risk and cost instead of continuing to bomb its civilians for an indeterminate amount of time while they starved to death.. That’s perhaps a bit different?
        _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        Gaza is getting 3,004 calories of energy per day per person. Official rations in Germany varied from 800–1550 calories per day. 800 airdropped, 1550 the amount post occupation. Are you arguing Israel should fully occupy and partition Gaza, like the allies did in Germany, and cut from the 3004 current calorie target to the 1550 one used by the USA in occupied Germany? What is different here? Germans in occupied Germany received LESS food than Gazan do today. Are you saying you want less food to go into Gaza because Gaza is getting twice the calorie targets of what the USA targeted for occupied Germany? Germany was fire bombed (much much worse than the bombing in Gaza) and given 1/3 to 1/2 as much food going on years after the conflict ended. I'm really confused what you are pushing for? I thought people wanted more food into Gaza, not severely less like how the USA treated occupied Germany. It sounds like you are saying Israel would be more just if they firebombed Gaza then partitioned it into smaller pieces isolating residents to those areas, and cut food in half from what Gaza is getting fed today? And that's ignoring the mass mass rapes that occured in Germany. What you are arguing for would be very, very bad. https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-025-00668-6 https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-025-... https://hhr-atlas.ieg-mainz.de/articles/oconnell-washington-dc https://hhr-atlas.ieg-mainz.de/articles/oconnell-washington-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany
        linehedonist 1y ago
        Putting aside its accuracy, your 3004 calorie count is for the first half of last year. Famously, of course, the food situation in Gaza is much worse now in 2025 than in 2024, starting with the fact that Israel allowed in zero (0) food for months this year. How does that fact change your opinion?
- cubefox 1y ago
  If likewise fighting the Nazis had been stopped because of people calling it a "genocide" the outcome would have been catastrophic.
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    Hamas doesn’t have tanks, bombers, cruise or ballistic missiles though. Destroying their capacity to wage war didn’t require blowing up every building in Gaza.
    - cubefox 1y ago
      Unlike the Nazis, Hamas isn't capitulating. If the Nazis hadn't capitulated, the allies wouldn't just have gone home.
      - ath3nd 1y ago
        [dead]
      - wqaatwt 1y ago
        That’s true. However Israel is allowing Hamas to maintain some presence and control over Gaza instead of directly occupying it like the allies did.
wqaatwt 1y ago
Germany was still launching ballistic missiles at England a month after Dresden. It’s a false analogy, the conventional war is long over and hamas has no real military capacity to do much anymore. The equivalent would be the allies refusing to occupy Berlin and still bombing it well into 1946 despite the war being won. Allies also had a rather clear plan on what goals they want to achieve and why. Israeli government seems to have no idea what do they want to achieve and how (besides extending Netanyahu’s political career..)
- dlubarov 1y ago
  > Germany was still launching ballistic missiles at England a month after Dresden. Just in the past 24 hours, there were rockets launched from Gaza toward Ashdod - https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-rockets-fired-at-ashdod-idf-says-many-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-city-push/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-rockets-fired-at-ashdod-id... > hamas has no real military capacity to do much anymore They're still in control of a significant minority of Gaza territory. "Destroy military assets and get out" can sometimes be a useful strategy, but it's a pretty short term solution. > what goals they want to achieve and why The goal seems to be occupation of the entire strip, to make it difficult for Hamas (and PIJ etc) to operate effectively.
  - jakupovic 1y ago
    "significant minority of Gaza territory" you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
    - dlubarov 1y ago
      Do you have some kind of response that isn't just an ad hominem?
      - jakupovic 1y ago
        There is no such thing as significant minority. Therefore your argument is predicated on nothing, and a loss of time.

by devzx 1y ago

How do you feel about the bombing of Dresden in World War 2? If people like you were listened to back then, you would be speaking German right now and I wouldn't be here.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

permo-w 1y ago

how does this follow?

_DeadFred_ 1y ago
Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were destroyed without it being a genocide.
- permo-w 1y ago
  and so were many British towns and cities. atrocity /= genocide. how does the speaking German or non-existence of the commenter follow?
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    If we hadn't bombed these cities we might not have won the war. Arguably we didn't have to nuke Japan but chose to over the cost of the lives of our own soldiers (including my grandfather a marine in the pacific). War involves doing horrific things you don't want to do and wouldn't normally do (look at Israel's actions pre Oct 7th versus post, this sort of war is not the natural state for Israel). War requires you lean on the side of doing too much damage versus limiting your military actions. War requires you take maximal actions, unlike policing where we try to use minimal. If the US fought Japan how people want Israel to fight the government of Gaza, I would not exist, my grandfather would have died storming Japan. It would have been a more moral victory, but it is very hard for any society to choose sacrificing their 18 years olds in a conflict initiated by the other side, when war strategy dictates that other paths/actions be taken, paths with less of your 18 year olds dead and a higher chance of reaching your goals. War by it's naturing is fought maximally, not as a police action. This is also not a gentleman's war. A neighboring government supported by their citizens who joined in spontaneously, launched a surprise attack that killed 1000+, and indiscriminately maimed/raped/tortured thousands more, while broadcasting video of themselves kidnapping random 6 year old girls to the world, neighboring citizens who phoned home to their parents to brag 'I killed 10 jews today'. War sucks. War is horrific. Which is why it sucks Hamas, the government of Gaza, chose this war. Why it sucks Hamas structured things for the war to proceed, with maximal civilian damage and casualties. Why it sucks Hamas chose to use civilian hostages abducted during the murder/rape/maiming of thousands. No country can just let their citizens be abducted and held captive like Hamas choses to do, intentionally ratcheting up the pressure/tempo of the war that they initiated.
    - wqaatwt 1y ago
      But allies stopped bombing Germany after they occupied it? They had rather specific goals and were willing to directly occupy Germany at great risk and cost instead of continuing to bomb its civilians for an indeterminate amount of time while they starved to death.. That’s perhaps a bit different?
      - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        Gaza is getting 3,004 calories of energy per day per person. Official rations in Germany varied from 800–1550 calories per day. 800 airdropped, 1550 the amount post occupation. Are you arguing Israel should fully occupy and partition Gaza, like the allies did in Germany, and cut from the 3004 current calorie target to the 1550 one used by the USA in occupied Germany? What is different here? Germans in occupied Germany received LESS food than Gazan do today. Are you saying you want less food to go into Gaza because Gaza is getting twice the calorie targets of what the USA targeted for occupied Germany? Germany was fire bombed (much much worse than the bombing in Gaza) and given 1/3 to 1/2 as much food going on years after the conflict ended. I'm really confused what you are pushing for? I thought people wanted more food into Gaza, not severely less like how the USA treated occupied Germany. It sounds like you are saying Israel would be more just if they firebombed Gaza then partitioned it into smaller pieces isolating residents to those areas, and cut food in half from what Gaza is getting fed today? And that's ignoring the mass mass rapes that occured in Germany. What you are arguing for would be very, very bad. https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-025-00668-6 https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-025-... https://hhr-atlas.ieg-mainz.de/articles/oconnell-washington-dc https://hhr-atlas.ieg-mainz.de/articles/oconnell-washington-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany
        linehedonist 1y ago
        Putting aside its accuracy, your 3004 calorie count is for the first half of last year. Famously, of course, the food situation in Gaza is much worse now in 2025 than in 2024, starting with the fact that Israel allowed in zero (0) food for months this year. How does that fact change your opinion?
cubefox 1y ago
If likewise fighting the Nazis had been stopped because of people calling it a "genocide" the outcome would have been catastrophic.
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  Hamas doesn’t have tanks, bombers, cruise or ballistic missiles though. Destroying their capacity to wage war didn’t require blowing up every building in Gaza.
  - cubefox 1y ago
    Unlike the Nazis, Hamas isn't capitulating. If the Nazis hadn't capitulated, the allies wouldn't just have gone home.
    - ath3nd 1y ago
      [dead]
    - wqaatwt 1y ago
      That’s true. However Israel is allowing Hamas to maintain some presence and control over Gaza instead of directly occupying it like the allies did.

wqaatwt 1y ago

Germany was still launching ballistic missiles at England a month after Dresden. It’s a false analogy, the conventional war is long over and hamas has no real military capacity to do much anymore. The equivalent would be the allies refusing to occupy Berlin and still bombing it well into 1946 despite the war being won. Allies also had a rather clear plan on what goals they want to achieve and why. Israeli government seems to have no idea what do they want to achieve and how (besides extending Netanyahu’s political career..)

dlubarov 1y ago
> Germany was still launching ballistic missiles at England a month after Dresden. Just in the past 24 hours, there were rockets launched from Gaza toward Ashdod - https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-rockets-fired-at-ashdod-idf-says-many-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-city-push/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-rockets-fired-at-ashdod-id... > hamas has no real military capacity to do much anymore They're still in control of a significant minority of Gaza territory. "Destroy military assets and get out" can sometimes be a useful strategy, but it's a pretty short term solution. > what goals they want to achieve and why The goal seems to be occupation of the entire strip, to make it difficult for Hamas (and PIJ etc) to operate effectively.
- jakupovic 1y ago
  "significant minority of Gaza territory" you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
  - dlubarov 1y ago
    Do you have some kind of response that isn't just an ad hominem?
    - jakupovic 1y ago
      There is no such thing as significant minority. Therefore your argument is predicated on nothing, and a loss of time.