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The majority of obese people want to be thin, but will die obese anyway. Just wanting something that requires a significant overhaul of how you do things, is n

The majority of obese people want to be thin, but will die obese anyway. Just wanting something that requires a significant overhaul of how you do things, is not enough.

paddleon 1y ago
better analogy: the majority of fouix-gras birds would prefer not to be force-fed and caged. The people working in the bureaucracy do not have the authority to overhaul it.
- parineum 1y ago
  The people working in the bureaucracy chose to be there. Bureaucracies self select for people that are okay with it. I'm sure there's a few who are there to change it from the inside but they are the exception. You're not going to find a lot of vegans working in a meat packing plant.
  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    But you are going to find vegans working in a slaughterhouse. Some people prioritise pragmatism over ideological purity. (See https://our-compass.org/2020/06/15/i-worked-undercover-inside-a-slaughterhouse/ https://our-compass.org/2020/06/15/i-worked-undercover-insid... and parts of https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683.)
    - kashunstva 1y ago
      > But you are going to find vegans working in a slaughterhouse. Your first link is the first-person account of a vegan who went undercover to document the abject cruelty that exists in slaughterhouses. The pragmatism was in service of a mission to protect animals by disseminating information on such cruelty rather than the “I need a job.” type of pragmatism. There’s a moral distinction here.
      - wizzwizz4 1y ago
        The first link's narrator blew the whistle to industry regulators on practices unethical by non-vegan standards, something that is only possible if you're on the ground. The second link quotes an interview: > Basically, I'm an animal lover. I don't take any pleasure in what we're doing, but if I can do it as quietly and professionally as possible, then I think we've achieved something. I was not at all referring to 'the "I need a job" type of pragmatism' (which would not be moral pragmatism for a vegan); rather, doing a job that involves killing animals in such a way that your presence reduces the marginal harm could be seen as defensible to a vegan.

The majority of obese people want to be thin, but will die obese anyway. Just wanting something that requires a significant overhaul of how you do things, is not enough.

paddleon 1y ago

better analogy: the majority of fouix-gras birds would prefer not to be force-fed and caged. The people working in the bureaucracy do not have the authority to overhaul it.

parineum 1y ago
The people working in the bureaucracy chose to be there. Bureaucracies self select for people that are okay with it. I'm sure there's a few who are there to change it from the inside but they are the exception. You're not going to find a lot of vegans working in a meat packing plant.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  But you are going to find vegans working in a slaughterhouse. Some people prioritise pragmatism over ideological purity. (See https://our-compass.org/2020/06/15/i-worked-undercover-inside-a-slaughterhouse/ https://our-compass.org/2020/06/15/i-worked-undercover-insid... and parts of https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683.)
  - kashunstva 1y ago
    > But you are going to find vegans working in a slaughterhouse. Your first link is the first-person account of a vegan who went undercover to document the abject cruelty that exists in slaughterhouses. The pragmatism was in service of a mission to protect animals by disseminating information on such cruelty rather than the “I need a job.” type of pragmatism. There’s a moral distinction here.
    - wizzwizz4 1y ago
      The first link's narrator blew the whistle to industry regulators on practices unethical by non-vegan standards, something that is only possible if you're on the ground. The second link quotes an interview: > Basically, I'm an animal lover. I don't take any pleasure in what we're doing, but if I can do it as quietly and professionally as possible, then I think we've achieved something. I was not at all referring to 'the "I need a job" type of pragmatism' (which would not be moral pragmatism for a vegan); rather, doing a job that involves killing animals in such a way that your presence reduces the marginal harm could be seen as defensible to a vegan.