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Isn't that an Israeli "hasbara" site? The Israelis have admitted that they use the false cry of "antisemitism" to attack. "Calling it antisemitism - it’s a tr

Isn't that an Israeli "hasbara" site? The Israelis have admitted that they use the false cry of "antisemitism" to attack. "Calling it antisemitism - it’s a trick we always use." Shulamit Aloni, former Israeli Minister https://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/1896748975207952758 https://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/1896748975207952758

gspencley 1y ago
How is that a refutation? If I want to understand any position I would look for first sources. Say I want to understand why Russian invaded Ukraine, I would seek out Russian sources. When I try to understand the Palestinian position, I seek out Palestinian sources. The beautiful thing about intellectual honesty and openness is that you don't have to agree with any position. You can expose yourself to things that deeply conflict with your personal values and walk away with a deeper understanding of why you value what you value, and how to refute ideas that you strongly disagree with. To dismiss a source because it is Israeli ironically gives fuel to the antisemitism charge. You're saying that the very reason to dismiss it, to not even bother entertaining its arguments is because it is Israeli and no other reason. Beyond that, you are even arguing that any claims of prejudice can be dismissed outright on the basis of one thing that one Israeli Minster once said [allegedly]. That is the very definition of prejudice.
- eej71 1y ago
  [flagged]
- alexisread 1y ago
  Quite simply Israelis and Jews are not the same group, otherwise you would be holding all Jews on the planet responsible for this genocide. Dismissing the source for being Israeli is not antisemitic. There are many examples of Israeli sources lying about the state of things, from the baseless claims against UNRWA to the unconscionable excuse of burying medics and the ambulances they were in, to avoid wild dogs eating them. Israeli sources rarely offer evidence to refute the claims presented in this report, and a cry of antisemitism, as stated, conflates Judeism with Israeli nationality, hence these sources are worthless at best.
  - eej71 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - alexisread 1y ago
      Which are not validated by the UN, Norway etc. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148821 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148821 If the claims were valid, countries would not have restarted funding to UNRWA. Simple. I note you've not denied the issues with claims of antisemitism which are important.
      - eej71 1y ago
        There is considerable evidence that there is a deep connection between members of Hamas and its extensive support network and UNRWA. Receipts: https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/ https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/ If that's not antisemitic, I'm not sure what would be in your mind. But I think for you, you are able to dismiss it because the rest of the world choose to not see it.
        alexisread 1y ago
        I was referring to your conflation of Israelis with Jews, and calling dismissal of an Israeli news source antisemitic, which it is not. I'm saying that a biased Israeli news source is less valid than the actions of dozens of countries, which decided to restart funding. It is telling that UN votes for a ceasefire are only opposed by the US, Israel and a handful of client states. This is a genocide, and most countries seem to agree on that.
        eej71 1y ago
        First, I think you are conflating two different authors in this thread. Second, you dismissed what you deemed to be Israeli sources as "lying about the state of things, from the baseless claims against UNRWA". I brought up evidence otherwise - specifically that their claims are not baseless. Dismiss _that_ as biased all you want, but its just links to social media posts from Hamas members. Members of Hamas that also work for UNRWA in some fashion. We do agree that the US and Israel standing alone is telling. But we will disagree on what it means. For me it confirms just how morally bankrupt the United Nations is. I see no epistemological value in just conforming to the majority when I see clear evidence otherwise.
- DaveExeter 1y ago
  "To dismiss a source because it is Israeli ironically gives fuel to the antisemitism charge." We agree it is an Israeli source. All the unwatch site does is accuse Israel's critics of being antisemites. When you can't respond to the message, attack the messenger. Accuse them of being antisemitic and being funded by Hamas. The Israelis have taken it to the point of farce! https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/09/stop-antisemitism-ms-rachel-doj-investigation https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/09/stop-antisem...
  - eej71 1y ago
    Receipts: https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/ https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/
breppp 1y ago
You are aware that Shulamit Alloni was on the extreme left and was criticizing this supposed misuse of Antisemitism, this is not some playbook The american equivalent would be to quote Bernie Sanders saying "America is fascist" and then saying, see? therefore the USA system of government is fascism, even Congress agrees!
- DaveExeter 1y ago
  Not sure how that's the equivalent. Lets see if there is a pattern. Roger Waters criticizes Israel, Roger Waters is an antisemite. Tucker Carlson criticizes Israel, Tucker Carlson is an antisemite. Edward Said criticizes Israel, Edward Said is an antisemite. Even "legends" get called antisemites! [1] Hannah Einbinder criticizes Israel, Hannah Einbinder is an antisemite? Hmmm. According to Jerry Seinfeld, anyone who says "free palestine" is antisemitic. Any website, or any person, that claims "antisemitism" has lost all credibility for me. [1] https://moguldom.com/454177/silicon-valley-legend-paul-graham-called-anti-semite-for-highlighting-massacre-of-3600-palestinian-children/ https://moguldom.com/454177/silicon-valley-legend-paul-graha...
  - breppp 1y ago
    You have simply given a false example. Regarding antisemitism, it is unfortunately a two millennium old racist phenomenon, which shows itself in an obsession many persons had with Jews and their "influence on world politics". Behaviors include use of ritual scapegoating, where double standards are applied to the jews and then blame is shifted to them, culminating in ritual violence. It's hard to delete 2000 years of western culture, so what you are seeing is mostly a rehash of this This predated Israel by much and can be seen online for example by the unhealthy obsession with this conflict or even paranoid delusions considering Israel ("Israel killed Charlie Kirk cause I saw Nethanyahu respond to the murder" as can be seen in this thread) In the above mentioned UN human right council you can see it in the fact 40% of decisions are about Israel while countries like Iran chair the committee. Or the fact there is a permanent clause (Article 7) meant to condemn Israel permanently, the only such country that had such a clause
    - 1y ago
dotancohen 1y ago
If we're on the subject of damning historic quotes, I've got one for you: > Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. - Hamas founding charter
- ViewTrick1002 1y ago
  Of course ignoring that Hamas was deliberately funded by Israel to cause a split between the politics of the West Bank and Gaza to prevent a unified political authority in Palestine.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    And today they are promoted by second and third world countries who oppose the first world, specifically to divide the first world nations. They are succeeding.
    - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
      This sounds to me like you are trying portray poorer countries as lesser worth because they had the guts of calling Israel out. The solution to rich countries being divided on an the issue of an ongoing genocide is you know, not committing said genocide.
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        > This sounds to me like you are trying portray poorer countries as lesser worth because they had the guts of calling Israel out. No, I'm portraying non-US-aligned nations as having an interest in dividing the US-aligned nations. What does "poorer" have anything to do with it? Is that some tactic to garner sympathy?
        ViewTrick1002 1y ago
        > However, Third World is still used as a (pejorative) term for the traditionally less-developed world (e.g. Africa) So now the entire west, NATO and other US allies should with blinded conviction approve of the genocide? This seems like you are afraid of isolation and the fallout of the ongoing genocide. There’s cracks showing and you know when they open Israel will lose its privileged position.

gspencley 1y ago

How is that a refutation? If I want to understand any position I would look for first sources. Say I want to understand why Russian invaded Ukraine, I would seek out Russian sources. When I try to understand the Palestinian position, I seek out Palestinian sources. The beautiful thing about intellectual honesty and openness is that you don't have to agree with any position. You can expose yourself to things that deeply conflict with your personal values and walk away with a deeper understanding of why you value what you value, and how to refute ideas that you strongly disagree with. To dismiss a source because it is Israeli ironically gives fuel to the antisemitism charge. You're saying that the very reason to dismiss it, to not even bother entertaining its arguments is because it is Israeli and no other reason. Beyond that, you are even arguing that any claims of prejudice can be dismissed outright on the basis of one thing that one Israeli Minster once said [allegedly]. That is the very definition of prejudice.

eej71 1y ago
[flagged]
alexisread 1y ago
Quite simply Israelis and Jews are not the same group, otherwise you would be holding all Jews on the planet responsible for this genocide. Dismissing the source for being Israeli is not antisemitic. There are many examples of Israeli sources lying about the state of things, from the baseless claims against UNRWA to the unconscionable excuse of burying medics and the ambulances they were in, to avoid wild dogs eating them. Israeli sources rarely offer evidence to refute the claims presented in this report, and a cry of antisemitism, as stated, conflates Judeism with Israeli nationality, hence these sources are worthless at best.
- eej71 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - alexisread 1y ago
    Which are not validated by the UN, Norway etc. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148821 https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148821 If the claims were valid, countries would not have restarted funding to UNRWA. Simple. I note you've not denied the issues with claims of antisemitism which are important.
    - eej71 1y ago
      There is considerable evidence that there is a deep connection between members of Hamas and its extensive support network and UNRWA. Receipts: https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/ https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/ If that's not antisemitic, I'm not sure what would be in your mind. But I think for you, you are able to dismiss it because the rest of the world choose to not see it.
      - alexisread 1y ago
        I was referring to your conflation of Israelis with Jews, and calling dismissal of an Israeli news source antisemitic, which it is not. I'm saying that a biased Israeli news source is less valid than the actions of dozens of countries, which decided to restart funding. It is telling that UN votes for a ceasefire are only opposed by the US, Israel and a handful of client states. This is a genocide, and most countries seem to agree on that.
        eej71 1y ago
        First, I think you are conflating two different authors in this thread. Second, you dismissed what you deemed to be Israeli sources as "lying about the state of things, from the baseless claims against UNRWA". I brought up evidence otherwise - specifically that their claims are not baseless. Dismiss _that_ as biased all you want, but its just links to social media posts from Hamas members. Members of Hamas that also work for UNRWA in some fashion. We do agree that the US and Israel standing alone is telling. But we will disagree on what it means. For me it confirms just how morally bankrupt the United Nations is. I see no epistemological value in just conforming to the majority when I see clear evidence otherwise.
DaveExeter 1y ago
"To dismiss a source because it is Israeli ironically gives fuel to the antisemitism charge." We agree it is an Israeli source. All the unwatch site does is accuse Israel's critics of being antisemites. When you can't respond to the message, attack the messenger. Accuse them of being antisemitic and being funded by Hamas. The Israelis have taken it to the point of farce! https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/09/stop-antisemitism-ms-rachel-doj-investigation https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/09/stop-antisem...
- eej71 1y ago
  Receipts: https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/ https://unwatch.org/report-unrwas-terrorgram/

breppp 1y ago

You are aware that Shulamit Alloni was on the extreme left and was criticizing this supposed misuse of Antisemitism, this is not some playbook The american equivalent would be to quote Bernie Sanders saying "America is fascist" and then saying, see? therefore the USA system of government is fascism, even Congress agrees!

DaveExeter 1y ago
Not sure how that's the equivalent. Lets see if there is a pattern. Roger Waters criticizes Israel, Roger Waters is an antisemite. Tucker Carlson criticizes Israel, Tucker Carlson is an antisemite. Edward Said criticizes Israel, Edward Said is an antisemite. Even "legends" get called antisemites! [1] Hannah Einbinder criticizes Israel, Hannah Einbinder is an antisemite? Hmmm. According to Jerry Seinfeld, anyone who says "free palestine" is antisemitic. Any website, or any person, that claims "antisemitism" has lost all credibility for me. [1] https://moguldom.com/454177/silicon-valley-legend-paul-graham-called-anti-semite-for-highlighting-massacre-of-3600-palestinian-children/ https://moguldom.com/454177/silicon-valley-legend-paul-graha...
- breppp 1y ago
  You have simply given a false example. Regarding antisemitism, it is unfortunately a two millennium old racist phenomenon, which shows itself in an obsession many persons had with Jews and their "influence on world politics". Behaviors include use of ritual scapegoating, where double standards are applied to the jews and then blame is shifted to them, culminating in ritual violence. It's hard to delete 2000 years of western culture, so what you are seeing is mostly a rehash of this This predated Israel by much and can be seen online for example by the unhealthy obsession with this conflict or even paranoid delusions considering Israel ("Israel killed Charlie Kirk cause I saw Nethanyahu respond to the murder" as can be seen in this thread) In the above mentioned UN human right council you can see it in the fact 40% of decisions are about Israel while countries like Iran chair the committee. Or the fact there is a permanent clause (Article 7) meant to condemn Israel permanently, the only such country that had such a clause
  - 1y ago

dotancohen 1y ago

If we're on the subject of damning historic quotes, I've got one for you: > Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. - Hamas founding charter

ViewTrick1002 1y ago
Of course ignoring that Hamas was deliberately funded by Israel to cause a split between the politics of the West Bank and Gaza to prevent a unified political authority in Palestine.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  And today they are promoted by second and third world countries who oppose the first world, specifically to divide the first world nations. They are succeeding.
  - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
    This sounds to me like you are trying portray poorer countries as lesser worth because they had the guts of calling Israel out. The solution to rich countries being divided on an the issue of an ongoing genocide is you know, not committing said genocide.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      > This sounds to me like you are trying portray poorer countries as lesser worth because they had the guts of calling Israel out. No, I'm portraying non-US-aligned nations as having an interest in dividing the US-aligned nations. What does "poorer" have anything to do with it? Is that some tactic to garner sympathy?
      - ViewTrick1002 1y ago
        > However, Third World is still used as a (pejorative) term for the traditionally less-developed world (e.g. Africa) So now the entire west, NATO and other US allies should with blinded conviction approve of the genocide? This seems like you are afraid of isolation and the fallout of the ongoing genocide. There’s cracks showing and you know when they open Israel will lose its privileged position.