17 ms·

Yeah, but no-one outside of the USA will buy their shitty cars. So ultimately, they won't be competitive and will go under.

grg0 1y ago
That is the real question to me. Surely ramping production of gas cars at the expense of a slower adoption of EV technology is a step backwards in the global market? Regardless of what you think of the EV regulations, isn't the underlying problem that local car manufacturers are simply not competitive? EU car manufacturers have the same conundrum too as far as I know.
- tokioyoyo 1y ago
  Yeah, honestly I don’t know how to look at these news other than admission to defeat compared to Chinese EVs that I keep seeing in every country that doesn’t have domestic car industry or huge tariffs against them.
  - monkeydreams 1y ago
    > other than admission to defeat compared to Chinese EVs Or, to put it in another way; better and cheaper options for consumers. > in every country that doesn’t have domestic car industry or huge tariffs against them. Not every country needs a local car industry. Having a small number of efficient manufacturing countries means that everyone (both the consumers and the manufacturing countries) are better off. As a non-American, there is nothing special or magical about the US economy besides its size. American cars are generally sub-standard and are increasingly unpopular in my country as they are either too large/loud or saddled with US politics.
    - tokioyoyo 1y ago
      I agree with you completely. But reality is, when you have large X industry, there will be pressure to protect it at all costs — politically and economically speaking. How will that protectionism work, and whether consumers will be fed up with it to the point to throw the industry under the bus? That’s a different question.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Lots of people don’t want EVs
  - grg0 1y ago
    That's not the point and it's also irrelevant. People don't buy a car because they have a love of gas or electricity; they buy what works and is affordable. Chinese EVs are getting more range, have more software and safety features and are becoming cheaper and cheaper to buy. They are competition even to gas cars now. What form of energy the engine consumes is irrelevant here.
    - linotype 1y ago
      It’s relevant if the drivetrain is part of your identity. People like the vroom vroom. I drive an EV but I’m not about to ban others from driving what they want.
      - SoftTalker 1y ago
        It doesn't have to be part of your identity. Maybe you live in an apartment where you can't charge overnight. Or don't have many options for fast charging. Or you drive enough that the range is an issue and you don't want to plan around that or have to own a second car for long trips. There are many places and use cases where EVs work great. And there are many where they do not. Edit: and I'll add, that the fraction of EV owners for whom the car is part of their identity likely much larger than for ICE vehicle owners, though the relative sizes of each pool probably affects this. EVs are still in the early adopter phase in many/most areas.
        grg0 1y ago
        Those are good, actual points against EVs. I should have added hybrids in my original comment.
    - mensetmanusman 1y ago
      They are also sold below cost for a reason. lol
- majormajor 1y ago
  Do US-market Ford/Chevy/Ram/Jeeps do significant numbers internationally as-is?
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Canada, would be my guess. They also do significant numbers in central and south america - but that is 12+ year old used cars. Still important because used car values drive upgrades all down the line, but not much a concern otherwise.
- to11mtm 1y ago
  Some of it is about maximizing their balance sheet. The factories that existing ICE engines are made in, both their build and every retooling has a cost; being able to maximize the saleable product from that cost is in the best interests of the balance sheet. This is a challenge for both the US as well as Japan which is why you see each doing different weird things to try and kick the can down the road or ignore it. But that's a deeper part of the rabbit hole.
potato3732842 1y ago
They're not gonna un-learn the expertise that results in nearly every fuel molecule combining with oxygen and turning into marketable power and fuel economy numbers. That just makes no sense. Where they'll save money is chasing edge cases like cold start in certain ambient conditions, during shift points and whatnot. Most people don't really appreciate how much effort goes into emissions compliance in those sorts of transient conditions.
istjohn 1y ago
Americans won't have any other option than to buy expensive, high-maintenance ICE vehicles to keep these parasitic manufacturers afloat.
- Aloha 1y ago
  How do you figure? I can buy an electric car now, I can buy an ICE Car whats the difference?
  - istjohn 1y ago
    There are already cheaper, better vehicles being produced in China that American consumers cannot buy due to exhorbitant tariffs. These vehicles will only improve as battery tech continues to rapidly advance and Chinese manufacturers climb the learning curve. Meanwhile, American manufacturers will lazily enjoy comfortable margins guaranteed by the protectionist tariffs without needing to make meaningful investments in new technology. They will fall even further behind and become even less competitive. But the American people will be told--truthfully--that if they do not continue buying overpriced, technically inferior vehicles, the entire domestic auto industry will fall, with dire consequences for thousands of American workers. We bailed out the auto industry in 2008. The bipartisan tariffs on Chinese EVs is effectively another giant domestic auto industry bailout at great cost to American consumers, though they by and large are oblivious to this. But an argument could have been made that these tariffs were a necessary and temporary measure to give the US auto industry time and space to catch up to their foreign competition. With this change, these tariffs will need to be a permanent ball and chain on the American consumer. The US auto industry will never be able to exist without them.
    - monkeydreams 1y ago
      > There are already cheaper, better vehicles being produced in China that American consumers cannot buy due to exhorbitant tariffs. As an example, Australia has lifted many of the import barriers to entry to the car market and is flooded (in a good way) with cheap, reliable, and safe electric vehicles. US cars, once heavily dominating under local branding, are vanishingly rare (except in the "light truck wanker" marketplace).
dzhiurgis 1y ago
All while killing brand (Voldemort) that actually is desired around the world
hedora 1y ago
Also, if the US ever has another election, these regulations will flip back right to where they were.
- more_corn 1y ago
  I’m reminded of the famous laconic line from Sparta: “If”

grg0 1y ago

That is the real question to me. Surely ramping production of gas cars at the expense of a slower adoption of EV technology is a step backwards in the global market? Regardless of what you think of the EV regulations, isn't the underlying problem that local car manufacturers are simply not competitive? EU car manufacturers have the same conundrum too as far as I know.

tokioyoyo 1y ago
Yeah, honestly I don’t know how to look at these news other than admission to defeat compared to Chinese EVs that I keep seeing in every country that doesn’t have domestic car industry or huge tariffs against them.
- monkeydreams 1y ago
  > other than admission to defeat compared to Chinese EVs Or, to put it in another way; better and cheaper options for consumers. > in every country that doesn’t have domestic car industry or huge tariffs against them. Not every country needs a local car industry. Having a small number of efficient manufacturing countries means that everyone (both the consumers and the manufacturing countries) are better off. As a non-American, there is nothing special or magical about the US economy besides its size. American cars are generally sub-standard and are increasingly unpopular in my country as they are either too large/loud or saddled with US politics.
  - tokioyoyo 1y ago
    I agree with you completely. But reality is, when you have large X industry, there will be pressure to protect it at all costs — politically and economically speaking. How will that protectionism work, and whether consumers will be fed up with it to the point to throw the industry under the bus? That’s a different question.
SoftTalker 1y ago
Lots of people don’t want EVs
- grg0 1y ago
  That's not the point and it's also irrelevant. People don't buy a car because they have a love of gas or electricity; they buy what works and is affordable. Chinese EVs are getting more range, have more software and safety features and are becoming cheaper and cheaper to buy. They are competition even to gas cars now. What form of energy the engine consumes is irrelevant here.
  - linotype 1y ago
    It’s relevant if the drivetrain is part of your identity. People like the vroom vroom. I drive an EV but I’m not about to ban others from driving what they want.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      It doesn't have to be part of your identity. Maybe you live in an apartment where you can't charge overnight. Or don't have many options for fast charging. Or you drive enough that the range is an issue and you don't want to plan around that or have to own a second car for long trips. There are many places and use cases where EVs work great. And there are many where they do not. Edit: and I'll add, that the fraction of EV owners for whom the car is part of their identity likely much larger than for ICE vehicle owners, though the relative sizes of each pool probably affects this. EVs are still in the early adopter phase in many/most areas.
      - grg0 1y ago
        Those are good, actual points against EVs. I should have added hybrids in my original comment.
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    They are also sold below cost for a reason. lol
majormajor 1y ago
Do US-market Ford/Chevy/Ram/Jeeps do significant numbers internationally as-is?
- bluGill 1y ago
  Canada, would be my guess. They also do significant numbers in central and south america - but that is 12+ year old used cars. Still important because used car values drive upgrades all down the line, but not much a concern otherwise.
to11mtm 1y ago
Some of it is about maximizing their balance sheet. The factories that existing ICE engines are made in, both their build and every retooling has a cost; being able to maximize the saleable product from that cost is in the best interests of the balance sheet. This is a challenge for both the US as well as Japan which is why you see each doing different weird things to try and kick the can down the road or ignore it. But that's a deeper part of the rabbit hole.

potato3732842 1y ago

They're not gonna un-learn the expertise that results in nearly every fuel molecule combining with oxygen and turning into marketable power and fuel economy numbers. That just makes no sense. Where they'll save money is chasing edge cases like cold start in certain ambient conditions, during shift points and whatnot. Most people don't really appreciate how much effort goes into emissions compliance in those sorts of transient conditions.

istjohn 1y ago

Americans won't have any other option than to buy expensive, high-maintenance ICE vehicles to keep these parasitic manufacturers afloat.

Aloha 1y ago
How do you figure? I can buy an electric car now, I can buy an ICE Car whats the difference?
- istjohn 1y ago
  There are already cheaper, better vehicles being produced in China that American consumers cannot buy due to exhorbitant tariffs. These vehicles will only improve as battery tech continues to rapidly advance and Chinese manufacturers climb the learning curve. Meanwhile, American manufacturers will lazily enjoy comfortable margins guaranteed by the protectionist tariffs without needing to make meaningful investments in new technology. They will fall even further behind and become even less competitive. But the American people will be told--truthfully--that if they do not continue buying overpriced, technically inferior vehicles, the entire domestic auto industry will fall, with dire consequences for thousands of American workers. We bailed out the auto industry in 2008. The bipartisan tariffs on Chinese EVs is effectively another giant domestic auto industry bailout at great cost to American consumers, though they by and large are oblivious to this. But an argument could have been made that these tariffs were a necessary and temporary measure to give the US auto industry time and space to catch up to their foreign competition. With this change, these tariffs will need to be a permanent ball and chain on the American consumer. The US auto industry will never be able to exist without them.
  - monkeydreams 1y ago
    > There are already cheaper, better vehicles being produced in China that American consumers cannot buy due to exhorbitant tariffs. As an example, Australia has lifted many of the import barriers to entry to the car market and is flooded (in a good way) with cheap, reliable, and safe electric vehicles. US cars, once heavily dominating under local branding, are vanishingly rare (except in the "light truck wanker" marketplace).

dzhiurgis 1y ago

All while killing brand (Voldemort) that actually is desired around the world

hedora 1y ago

Also, if the US ever has another election, these regulations will flip back right to where they were.

more_corn 1y ago
I’m reminded of the famous laconic line from Sparta: “If”