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I tried Podman on my messing around VPS but quickly reverted to rootless Docker. The straw that broke the camels back was a bug in `podman compose` that funnil

I tried Podman on my messing around VPS but quickly reverted to rootless Docker. The straw that broke the camels back was a bug in `podman compose` that funnily enough was fixed two hours ago[1]; if `service1` has a `depends_on` on `service2`, bringing down `service1` will unconditionally bring down `service2`, even if other services also depend on it. So if two separate services depend on a database, killing one of them will kill the database too. Another incompatibility with Docker I experienced was raised in 2020 and fixed a few months ago[2]; you couldn't pass URLs to `build:` to automatically pull and build images. The patch for this turned out to be a few lines long. I'm sure Podman will be great once all of these bugs are ironed out, but for me, it's not quite there yet. [1]: https://github.com/containers/podman-compose/pull/1283 https://github.com/containers/podman-compose/pull/1283 [2]: https://github.com/containers/podman-compose/issues/127 https://github.com/containers/podman-compose/issues/127

bogwog 1y ago
Podman compose is an attempt to court Docker users by porting over a bad idea. Instead of that, learn how to create "quadlets" and you'll never want to touch docker again. See: https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman I recommend starting with .container files instead of .kube, unless you're already familiar with kubernetes.
- c-hendricks 1y ago
  So for my set of DVR services, quadlets would have me replace a single compose.yml with 6 .container files, and manually create the network, and have to stop and start all of the services individually. Not sure I'm sold.
  - bogwog 1y ago
    Not sure what your compose file looks like, but my container files are tiny, flat, and trivial to maintain. > manually create the network There's no way for me to know what your requirements are, but often times if you just need your containers to talk to each other, all you need is an empty file with a unique name. So `touch MyDVRNetwork.network` to create it, and add `Network=MyDVRNetwork` to your containerfiles. > and have to stop and start all of the services individually. Nope, container files are essentially already systemd service files. If you add them to the correct folder and set up the dependencies, systemd will automatically start them in the correct order at boot time, restart them if they fail, etc. That's the best part of quadlet IMO. Literally set it and forget it, and the process works the same for rootless containers (you just need to add them to your user folder instead of the system-wide folder) It gets even more awesome when you combine them with something like Fedora CoreOS and Butane. With a few small text files, you can declaratively generate an OS image with all of your desired services ready to go. It is pure bliss.
    - smarx007 1y ago
      How would I share Quadlet files for my repo? Today I have a docker-compose.yml in my repo, the instructions to try it out are usually `docker compose up --build -d`. I read about the recently released CLI support for quadlets [0] and the ability to install Quadlets from a URL but still cannot wrap my head around it (as in, no matter how I look at it, Quadlets seem to require non-trivially higher knowledge to use and more steps/files). If we need a concrete example to discuss: https://github.com/oslc-op/refimpl/blob/main/src/docker-compose.yml https://github.com/oslc-op/refimpl/blob/main/src/docker-comp... [0]: https://blog.podman.io/2025/08/level-up-your-container-game-unified-quadlet-management-is-now-natively-in-podman/ https://blog.podman.io/2025/08/level-up-your-container-game-...
      - bogwog 1y ago
        Quadlet is only for managing containers. If you need to build images too, you need to use the "buildah" CLI tool. If you know what a systemd service file is, a quadlet is essentially just that. It's a service file that automatically handles the annoying details of creating a systemd service to start/stop your container properly. But Quadlet needs a container image before it can create a container. The example compose file you linked includes steps for building Dockerfiles. Quadlet doesn't do that. Instead, you'll need to do it as a separate step using buildah (https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/containers/what-is-buildah https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/containers/what-is-buildah) Compose does a lot of stuff, so migrating away from it isn't always easy. In this case, you'd probably need to bring in a build system like Make or some custom scripts to build all the container images you need. Once you rebuild an image, you can restart your quadlet-managed containers with `systemctl restart my-container` and they'll automatically use the new image. I don't do much web development these days, so I'm definitely not an authority on container-based development workflows. Maybe there are better tools out there, or maybe compose is still the best tool for that job. But quadlets are definitely the better choice when it comes to deploying/orchestrating your containers without getting into a full blown kubernetes setup.
        GCUMstlyHarmls 1y ago
        Quadlet supports ".build" and ".image" files, and ".container"s can have an auto-update policy (supported by manually invoking `podman auto-update` or the daily timer.)
  - papercrane 1y ago
    Quadlets also support a .kube file. I have a similar use case where I have 6 containers I want to all run on the same network. So have a k8s YAML file that has a pod with the containers, their configuration and path mapping and then a have a `service.kube` file with a '[Kube]' section and a 'Yaml=/path/to/config.yaml' directive. That creates a single service to stop/start with systemd and has all the containers running on the same network in a single pod.
- johnny22 1y ago
  Can you use those quadlets inside a development project? I use docker-compose (with podman) just so i can work on a project that is completely self-contained. No copying files to ~/.config/systemd just run docker-compose to start and stop. Can i do that with quadlets?
  - bogwog 1y ago
    I'm not the best person to ask about this as I don't do much web dev these days, and my experience with podman is mostly limited to deploying existing software. If compose works for that use case, then you should probably stick with it. For actually deploying it somewhere though, you should be using quadlets instead (or kubernetes I guess) > No copying files to ~/.config/systemd just run docker-compose to start and stop. Naively, I'd say to create symlinks instead of copying, and run `systemctl daemon-reload`/`systemctl restart ...`. Although there are probably more streamlined web development options out there. Maybe look into Podman Pods. They're probably closer to what you're looking for, but idk what kind of dev tools exist out there for it. Maybe a few custom shell scripts to run the pod management commands is all you really need?
    - johnny22 1y ago
      > Naively, I'd say to create symlinks instead of copying, I did mean symlinks too. The rest of my system shouldn't have to know or care about my project at all. I just wanna be able to systemctl --user start ./my-service.service or something to that effect.
      - all2 1y ago
        > I just wanna be able to systemctl --user start ./my-service.service or something to that effect. Can you not? I know that systemctl has a userspace dot folder for user's services. [0] `~/.config/systemd/user/`
        bogwog 1y ago
        The quadlet user folder is typically at `~/.config/containers/systemd`. So if you put your .container files in there, you can start them with `systemctl start --user MyContainer` https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-systemd.unit.5.html#podman-rootless-unit-search-path https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-systemd.uni...
- cyberax 1y ago
  Can I use quadlets on my macOS laptop? Or in WSL2?
  - kevinrineer 1y ago
    I was able to follow Dan Walsh's example [0]. I tried with Ubuntu just know and there's a 404 for buildah to install via apt at this exact moment. Here's my working Fedora WSL2 (which I prefer and use daily). $ cat /etc/os-release NAME="Fedora Linux" VERSION="42 (WSL)" RELEASE_TYPE=stable ID=fedora VERSION_ID=42 VERSION_CODENAME="" PLATFORM_ID="platform:f42" PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux 42 (WSL)" ... VARIANT="WSL" VARIANT_ID=wsl [0] - https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman
sureglymop 1y ago
I use rootless podman in socket mode but use the docker CLI (just the CLI, no daemon or service or messing with iptables) as the frontend. Can recommend!
- bityard 1y ago
  What does the docker CLI give you that the podman CLI doesn't? (Surely you aren't suggesting that `docker compose` works with a podman rootless daemon?)
  - sureglymop 1y ago
    It works perfectly well. Try it out :)
    - bityard 1y ago
      Well that's pretty interesting, then. And it handles named volumes and isolated networks between containers?
      - sureglymop 1y ago
        Yes. All of that works in my experience. It's a drop in replacement. You set it up once in the docker CLI with `docker context ` or just symlink it to the right location. Then you can forget about it basically. I use this on my server with compose together with traefik which listens on 127.0.0.1:{8000,4433}. Then I have a small nftables config that does the port forwarding to 80/443.
  - ownagefool 1y ago
    it does work, yes
  - figmert 1y ago
    It certainly does! For what it's worth, podman has also a thin wrapper around docker compose (podman compose) which can also automatically select `podman-compose`. Note: - `podman-compose` is an early attempt at remaking `docker-compose` but for Podman. - Later Podman wrote a Docker compatible socket instead, which can work with most docker clis that accept a `DOCKER_HOST` argument, including `docker` and `docker-compose` (both v1 and v2) - `podman compose` is a thin wrapper that automatically selects `docker-compose` or `podman-compose` depending on which is installed.
prmoustache 1y ago
> once all of these bugs are ironed out You just mentioned they are.

bogwog 1y ago

Podman compose is an attempt to court Docker users by porting over a bad idea. Instead of that, learn how to create "quadlets" and you'll never want to touch docker again. See: https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman I recommend starting with .container files instead of .kube, unless you're already familiar with kubernetes.

c-hendricks 1y ago
So for my set of DVR services, quadlets would have me replace a single compose.yml with 6 .container files, and manually create the network, and have to stop and start all of the services individually. Not sure I'm sold.
- bogwog 1y ago
  Not sure what your compose file looks like, but my container files are tiny, flat, and trivial to maintain. > manually create the network There's no way for me to know what your requirements are, but often times if you just need your containers to talk to each other, all you need is an empty file with a unique name. So `touch MyDVRNetwork.network` to create it, and add `Network=MyDVRNetwork` to your containerfiles. > and have to stop and start all of the services individually. Nope, container files are essentially already systemd service files. If you add them to the correct folder and set up the dependencies, systemd will automatically start them in the correct order at boot time, restart them if they fail, etc. That's the best part of quadlet IMO. Literally set it and forget it, and the process works the same for rootless containers (you just need to add them to your user folder instead of the system-wide folder) It gets even more awesome when you combine them with something like Fedora CoreOS and Butane. With a few small text files, you can declaratively generate an OS image with all of your desired services ready to go. It is pure bliss.
  - smarx007 1y ago
    How would I share Quadlet files for my repo? Today I have a docker-compose.yml in my repo, the instructions to try it out are usually `docker compose up --build -d`. I read about the recently released CLI support for quadlets [0] and the ability to install Quadlets from a URL but still cannot wrap my head around it (as in, no matter how I look at it, Quadlets seem to require non-trivially higher knowledge to use and more steps/files). If we need a concrete example to discuss: https://github.com/oslc-op/refimpl/blob/main/src/docker-compose.yml https://github.com/oslc-op/refimpl/blob/main/src/docker-comp... [0]: https://blog.podman.io/2025/08/level-up-your-container-game-unified-quadlet-management-is-now-natively-in-podman/ https://blog.podman.io/2025/08/level-up-your-container-game-...
    - bogwog 1y ago
      Quadlet is only for managing containers. If you need to build images too, you need to use the "buildah" CLI tool. If you know what a systemd service file is, a quadlet is essentially just that. It's a service file that automatically handles the annoying details of creating a systemd service to start/stop your container properly. But Quadlet needs a container image before it can create a container. The example compose file you linked includes steps for building Dockerfiles. Quadlet doesn't do that. Instead, you'll need to do it as a separate step using buildah (https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/containers/what-is-buildah https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/containers/what-is-buildah) Compose does a lot of stuff, so migrating away from it isn't always easy. In this case, you'd probably need to bring in a build system like Make or some custom scripts to build all the container images you need. Once you rebuild an image, you can restart your quadlet-managed containers with `systemctl restart my-container` and they'll automatically use the new image. I don't do much web development these days, so I'm definitely not an authority on container-based development workflows. Maybe there are better tools out there, or maybe compose is still the best tool for that job. But quadlets are definitely the better choice when it comes to deploying/orchestrating your containers without getting into a full blown kubernetes setup.
      - GCUMstlyHarmls 1y ago
        Quadlet supports ".build" and ".image" files, and ".container"s can have an auto-update policy (supported by manually invoking `podman auto-update` or the daily timer.)
- papercrane 1y ago
  Quadlets also support a .kube file. I have a similar use case where I have 6 containers I want to all run on the same network. So have a k8s YAML file that has a pod with the containers, their configuration and path mapping and then a have a `service.kube` file with a '[Kube]' section and a 'Yaml=/path/to/config.yaml' directive. That creates a single service to stop/start with systemd and has all the containers running on the same network in a single pod.
johnny22 1y ago
Can you use those quadlets inside a development project? I use docker-compose (with podman) just so i can work on a project that is completely self-contained. No copying files to ~/.config/systemd just run docker-compose to start and stop. Can i do that with quadlets?
- bogwog 1y ago
  I'm not the best person to ask about this as I don't do much web dev these days, and my experience with podman is mostly limited to deploying existing software. If compose works for that use case, then you should probably stick with it. For actually deploying it somewhere though, you should be using quadlets instead (or kubernetes I guess) > No copying files to ~/.config/systemd just run docker-compose to start and stop. Naively, I'd say to create symlinks instead of copying, and run `systemctl daemon-reload`/`systemctl restart ...`. Although there are probably more streamlined web development options out there. Maybe look into Podman Pods. They're probably closer to what you're looking for, but idk what kind of dev tools exist out there for it. Maybe a few custom shell scripts to run the pod management commands is all you really need?
  - johnny22 1y ago
    > Naively, I'd say to create symlinks instead of copying, I did mean symlinks too. The rest of my system shouldn't have to know or care about my project at all. I just wanna be able to systemctl --user start ./my-service.service or something to that effect.
    - all2 1y ago
      > I just wanna be able to systemctl --user start ./my-service.service or something to that effect. Can you not? I know that systemctl has a userspace dot folder for user's services. [0] `~/.config/systemd/user/`
      - bogwog 1y ago
        The quadlet user folder is typically at `~/.config/containers/systemd`. So if you put your .container files in there, you can start them with `systemctl start --user MyContainer` https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-systemd.unit.5.html#podman-rootless-unit-search-path https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-systemd.uni...
cyberax 1y ago
Can I use quadlets on my macOS laptop? Or in WSL2?
- kevinrineer 1y ago
  I was able to follow Dan Walsh's example [0]. I tried with Ubuntu just know and there's a 404 for buildah to install via apt at this exact moment. Here's my working Fedora WSL2 (which I prefer and use daily). $ cat /etc/os-release NAME="Fedora Linux" VERSION="42 (WSL)" RELEASE_TYPE=stable ID=fedora VERSION_ID=42 VERSION_CODENAME="" PLATFORM_ID="platform:f42" PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux 42 (WSL)" ... VARIANT="WSL" VARIANT_ID=wsl [0] - https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/quadlet-podman

sureglymop 1y ago

I use rootless podman in socket mode but use the docker CLI (just the CLI, no daemon or service or messing with iptables) as the frontend. Can recommend!

bityard 1y ago
What does the docker CLI give you that the podman CLI doesn't? (Surely you aren't suggesting that `docker compose` works with a podman rootless daemon?)
- sureglymop 1y ago
  It works perfectly well. Try it out :)
  - bityard 1y ago
    Well that's pretty interesting, then. And it handles named volumes and isolated networks between containers?
    - sureglymop 1y ago
      Yes. All of that works in my experience. It's a drop in replacement. You set it up once in the docker CLI with `docker context ` or just symlink it to the right location. Then you can forget about it basically. I use this on my server with compose together with traefik which listens on 127.0.0.1:{8000,4433}. Then I have a small nftables config that does the port forwarding to 80/443.
- ownagefool 1y ago
  it does work, yes
- figmert 1y ago
  It certainly does! For what it's worth, podman has also a thin wrapper around docker compose (podman compose) which can also automatically select `podman-compose`. Note: - `podman-compose` is an early attempt at remaking `docker-compose` but for Podman. - Later Podman wrote a Docker compatible socket instead, which can work with most docker clis that accept a `DOCKER_HOST` argument, including `docker` and `docker-compose` (both v1 and v2) - `podman compose` is a thin wrapper that automatically selects `docker-compose` or `podman-compose` depending on which is installed.

prmoustache 1y ago

> once all of these bugs are ironed out You just mentioned they are.