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I often browse Hacker News and like it here. As a young Chinese entrepreneur, comments like these make me feel frustrated. China has a large wealth gap, and we

I often browse Hacker News and like it here. As a young Chinese entrepreneur, comments like these make me feel frustrated. China has a large wealth gap, and we have many people with lower education levels who earn meager wages through manual labor to support their families, highly dependent on manufacturing for income. In a sense, they are somewhat like the American Rust Belt before the loss of manufacturing (though they probably don't live as well as Americans, as they can afford neither homes nor cars). The setbacks manufacturing faces in international trade are making their lives even worse. I can roughly understand why you made such a comment, because many friendly and kind people around you are, or have been, worse off due to the competition between our countries. The people around me are also friendly and kind, and I think the best outcome should be for all of us to live better, rather than one side getting better at the expense of the other. I think we should find ways to develop that benefit everyone, because we are all human, and those who are awake when you are sleeping are not bad people.

yetihehe 1y ago
I would agree with you, if I didn't hear many times about Chinese government repressing other nations just for being near China and not being fully Chinese. Maybe people near you are kind and friendly and I would like to help them, but I'm afraid that some Chinese people with guns will also come to me. How would you solve that problem?
- eptcyka 1y ago
  All big countries do that, look at the US meddling with the while of South America and the Middle East. China does the same.
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    What precisely do you mean in regards to South America? Or are you referencing 19th century policies?
    - kelipso 1y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the... There are lots more.
    - nerdsniper 1y ago
      1954 - The USA overthrew a democratic government in Guatemala and replaced it with a violent dictatorship so that we could keep getting cheap bananas.
    - Teever 1y ago
      You took the bait. The person you're replying to would much rather have a discussion about the well-documented atrocities of a waning American empire than the far less documented atrocities of a waxing Chinese Empire that has no democratic institutions to keep it in check.
      - kjkjadksj 1y ago
        You act like our democratic instutions keep us in check. Note how most of our disruption in central america came from actions by clandestine intelligence agencies that are unaccountable to the democratic american government. Yes, there are two governments in the U.S: the one the public elects and then the one that the public is never to fully learn about.
        moomoo11 1y ago
        Bro they intervened in Guatemala because in almost every case where communism was preferred over capitalism that country went to shit and became a backwater. Commi didn’t work as an experiment after all those death camps and purges anyway. And anyone “communist” today is basically authoritarian capitalist with mini purges and dictators. They take Jack Ma to a “camp” and factory reset him or put all the Muslims out west in a prison city. America has to play the way it does sometimes because the lobby is dominated by cheaters and toxic scumbags who don’t want to actually score points and win.
  - yetihehe 1y ago
    Does that mean I can help Americans and Chinese (and maybe Russians too), because everyone is doing bad things? Like IBM provided equipment to nazis during WW2? Business is business, right?
    - eptcyka 1y ago
      You can help whomever, but I suggest doing things to push powers to do less harm. I don’t think we should argue against more international cooperation with the argument that any party is or has committed atrocities, otherwise the only international collaboration that will takr place will be between states too small to be useful. Although the Putin regime can enter the sea and never return.
      - yetihehe 1y ago
        > You can help whomever, but I suggest doing things to push powers to do less harm. I'm so comically bad at pushing powers to do anything that even my wife doesn't listen to me. From what I've seen, most people making things are bad at demanding things from others. Those who are good at demanding things from others don't really need to make things themselves.
- lpapez 1y ago
  This same argument you laid out here also works if you replace "Chinese" with "US". For much of the globe, the US is the bad guy/bully, and not the "world policeman" - epecially in countries they bombed (like my country). With recent US administration changes, this attitude is also becoming more prominent in countries which used to consider the US to be an ally!
mensetmanusman 1y ago
I feel for you, there is no easy solution: “ China has a large wealth gap, and we have many people with lower education levels who earn meager wages through manual labor to support their families.” This is the crux of the issue, people too close to extreme poverty couldn’t care less about the IP institutions that led to mass technological development that they or their child will benefit from. To me, it’s analogous to how very poor people treat the environment very poorly because they have no mental bandwidth to care. The best way to help in that case is to raise wages. People are frustrated with the CCP because devaluing the currency is intentional massive wage theft which keeps the population near poverty with the negative aftereffects. If this goes on long enough (which it might have), humanity at large suffers if people refuse to invest in technology of the future or everyone starts putting up trade barriers because the lost investments are too painful.
- yetihehe 1y ago
  > The best way to help in that case is to raise wages. How to raise those wages without enough money? I think money are created from making products. If you just increase wages without changing anything other (like making more products or more expensive products), it means you increase inflation, which is essentially redistribution of money from everyone to those poorer people. I think the solution is investment into more high and practical education, so that people actually can work more productively and make more money that way. But current accounting practices seem to not see this way, so money are not allocated for such education.
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    Increasing wages spurs consumers which generates wealth due to money velocity.
- zonghao 1y ago
  Yes, this goes back to that fundamental and long-debated question: How do we eliminate poverty? I've studied some sociological and economic theories, and I generally understand that this problem is very difficult to solve. From my perspective, China's biggest problem right now is actually unequal distribution (especially between different regions), and it's sad to see such a problem in a socialist country. I really hope our government can truly commit to solving such inter-regional distribution problems, instead of just shouting slogans and doing nothing (which they often do). I have many classmates from underdeveloped regions who come to Beijing for university and then never return to their hometowns because there are simply no opportunities there. Major resources are concentrated in a few large cities. I don't know if this is a common characteristic of East Asian countries (Tokyo is also very large, and small cities in Japan are also declining). However, Japan's Gini coefficient is very low, and I think we should learn from Japan in this regard.
navtoj 1y ago
Yup, human progress is positive-sum in the long run. It only looks zero-sum because of short-term politics.
- Nevermark 1y ago
  Positive-sum yes, but win-win not so reliably. Positive-sum doesn't necessarily mean everyone wins. Just that in aggregate things improve. In fact, for any significant policy change, there will be losers. And lots of very long term systemic dysfunction, with powerful interests reinforcing that dysfunction, tilting positive returns toward themselves, and negative returns onto others.
moomoo11 1y ago
I have no problem with anyone individually. I'm sure we'd all get along just fine on that level. The issue is your gov. Same as Russia or anyone else. People are the same individually, but collectively we are not. The Lakers don’t invite the Celtics to a BBQ instead of competing on the court just because they both love shooting hoops. You are an entrepreneur? You should come to America if you love free-r markets and entrepreneurship. You do know that you can far more easily start a company in America as a Chinese national, than I could in China as an American citizen right? We are all the same people if we go grab a bite or show each other our favorite music videos, but on a global stage we are not the same as NATIONS. That is the key distinction. As an American, I believe that our way of life, our Constitution, and our proven ability to take all sorts of people and make our nation greater because of it is the epitome of human civilization so far. Others have had thousands of years, still failed to do much. We've only been around since 1776 and been through our own very hard lessons (Civil War, civil rights, Vietnam), though I would argue on a objective scale nowhere close to CCP or Russians.. A quick peek at recent CCP history (hey, we all have skeletons in the closet like I already conceded) shows 10s of millions of their own people murdered in purges (we can argue if it was 10 million or 40 million or 80 million, and it would be totally absurd), Tiananmen Square Massacre, Jack Ma's treatment, drowning Filipino fishermen and other S. China Sea free trade disruptions, and most recently a possible invasion of Taiwan. The possibility of a PLA invasion of Taiwan is why America has invested billions into building chip factories on-shore. As soon as the PLA launches, Taiwan is forced to destroy its own chip factories and other critical infrastructure. I have zero faith that a CCP dominated world would be a net benefit. It is an exclusionary repressive government, it likes to purge its people randomly, and in general is just not easy to get along with. It also has a boardroom despot that's a dictator. Same thing with Russians, they have been under the rule of some truly awful people and that's just how it is at the end of the day, nothing personal. I don't need to go on a VPN and be afraid to speak my mind here because being honest about our shortcomings and past is how we forge an actually better tomorrow. The US also exports culture. I've been around the world, and I see people wearing NBA jerseys or going crazy in the theater watching Marvel movies with subtitles. Even the media in other countries is so heavily derivative of American culture, like pop idol bands or any TV show literally looks like American media from 10-20 years ago but in a different language that I enjoy with subtitles because it is nice to hear a different language and see the scenery there. (Really brings to light what I meant about copy/pasting or stealing from us, in literally every regard though) They love being American, and acting like it too sometimes. That’s the beauty of America, that anyone can join (legally if physically, otherwise just vibing), and it only makes us stronger. I don’t see anyone lining up to "be Chinese" or "be Russian" in the same way, almost always the other way around. Even our biggest haters are rocking American fashion with their fighter kits lol.

yetihehe 1y ago

I would agree with you, if I didn't hear many times about Chinese government repressing other nations just for being near China and not being fully Chinese. Maybe people near you are kind and friendly and I would like to help them, but I'm afraid that some Chinese people with guns will also come to me. How would you solve that problem?

eptcyka 1y ago
All big countries do that, look at the US meddling with the while of South America and the Middle East. China does the same.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  What precisely do you mean in regards to South America? Or are you referencing 19th century policies?
  - kelipso 1y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the... There are lots more.
  - nerdsniper 1y ago
    1954 - The USA overthrew a democratic government in Guatemala and replaced it with a violent dictatorship so that we could keep getting cheap bananas.
  - Teever 1y ago
    You took the bait. The person you're replying to would much rather have a discussion about the well-documented atrocities of a waning American empire than the far less documented atrocities of a waxing Chinese Empire that has no democratic institutions to keep it in check.
    - kjkjadksj 1y ago
      You act like our democratic instutions keep us in check. Note how most of our disruption in central america came from actions by clandestine intelligence agencies that are unaccountable to the democratic american government. Yes, there are two governments in the U.S: the one the public elects and then the one that the public is never to fully learn about.
      - moomoo11 1y ago
        Bro they intervened in Guatemala because in almost every case where communism was preferred over capitalism that country went to shit and became a backwater. Commi didn’t work as an experiment after all those death camps and purges anyway. And anyone “communist” today is basically authoritarian capitalist with mini purges and dictators. They take Jack Ma to a “camp” and factory reset him or put all the Muslims out west in a prison city. America has to play the way it does sometimes because the lobby is dominated by cheaters and toxic scumbags who don’t want to actually score points and win.
- yetihehe 1y ago
  Does that mean I can help Americans and Chinese (and maybe Russians too), because everyone is doing bad things? Like IBM provided equipment to nazis during WW2? Business is business, right?
  - eptcyka 1y ago
    You can help whomever, but I suggest doing things to push powers to do less harm. I don’t think we should argue against more international cooperation with the argument that any party is or has committed atrocities, otherwise the only international collaboration that will takr place will be between states too small to be useful. Although the Putin regime can enter the sea and never return.
    - yetihehe 1y ago
      > You can help whomever, but I suggest doing things to push powers to do less harm. I'm so comically bad at pushing powers to do anything that even my wife doesn't listen to me. From what I've seen, most people making things are bad at demanding things from others. Those who are good at demanding things from others don't really need to make things themselves.
lpapez 1y ago
This same argument you laid out here also works if you replace "Chinese" with "US". For much of the globe, the US is the bad guy/bully, and not the "world policeman" - epecially in countries they bombed (like my country). With recent US administration changes, this attitude is also becoming more prominent in countries which used to consider the US to be an ally!

mensetmanusman 1y ago

I feel for you, there is no easy solution: “ China has a large wealth gap, and we have many people with lower education levels who earn meager wages through manual labor to support their families.” This is the crux of the issue, people too close to extreme poverty couldn’t care less about the IP institutions that led to mass technological development that they or their child will benefit from. To me, it’s analogous to how very poor people treat the environment very poorly because they have no mental bandwidth to care. The best way to help in that case is to raise wages. People are frustrated with the CCP because devaluing the currency is intentional massive wage theft which keeps the population near poverty with the negative aftereffects. If this goes on long enough (which it might have), humanity at large suffers if people refuse to invest in technology of the future or everyone starts putting up trade barriers because the lost investments are too painful.

yetihehe 1y ago
> The best way to help in that case is to raise wages. How to raise those wages without enough money? I think money are created from making products. If you just increase wages without changing anything other (like making more products or more expensive products), it means you increase inflation, which is essentially redistribution of money from everyone to those poorer people. I think the solution is investment into more high and practical education, so that people actually can work more productively and make more money that way. But current accounting practices seem to not see this way, so money are not allocated for such education.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  Increasing wages spurs consumers which generates wealth due to money velocity.
zonghao 1y ago
Yes, this goes back to that fundamental and long-debated question: How do we eliminate poverty? I've studied some sociological and economic theories, and I generally understand that this problem is very difficult to solve. From my perspective, China's biggest problem right now is actually unequal distribution (especially between different regions), and it's sad to see such a problem in a socialist country. I really hope our government can truly commit to solving such inter-regional distribution problems, instead of just shouting slogans and doing nothing (which they often do). I have many classmates from underdeveloped regions who come to Beijing for university and then never return to their hometowns because there are simply no opportunities there. Major resources are concentrated in a few large cities. I don't know if this is a common characteristic of East Asian countries (Tokyo is also very large, and small cities in Japan are also declining). However, Japan's Gini coefficient is very low, and I think we should learn from Japan in this regard.

navtoj 1y ago

Yup, human progress is positive-sum in the long run. It only looks zero-sum because of short-term politics.

Nevermark 1y ago
Positive-sum yes, but win-win not so reliably. Positive-sum doesn't necessarily mean everyone wins. Just that in aggregate things improve. In fact, for any significant policy change, there will be losers. And lots of very long term systemic dysfunction, with powerful interests reinforcing that dysfunction, tilting positive returns toward themselves, and negative returns onto others.

moomoo11 1y ago

I have no problem with anyone individually. I'm sure we'd all get along just fine on that level. The issue is your gov. Same as Russia or anyone else. People are the same individually, but collectively we are not. The Lakers don’t invite the Celtics to a BBQ instead of competing on the court just because they both love shooting hoops. You are an entrepreneur? You should come to America if you love free-r markets and entrepreneurship. You do know that you can far more easily start a company in America as a Chinese national, than I could in China as an American citizen right? We are all the same people if we go grab a bite or show each other our favorite music videos, but on a global stage we are not the same as NATIONS. That is the key distinction. As an American, I believe that our way of life, our Constitution, and our proven ability to take all sorts of people and make our nation greater because of it is the epitome of human civilization so far. Others have had thousands of years, still failed to do much. We've only been around since 1776 and been through our own very hard lessons (Civil War, civil rights, Vietnam), though I would argue on a objective scale nowhere close to CCP or Russians.. A quick peek at recent CCP history (hey, we all have skeletons in the closet like I already conceded) shows 10s of millions of their own people murdered in purges (we can argue if it was 10 million or 40 million or 80 million, and it would be totally absurd), Tiananmen Square Massacre, Jack Ma's treatment, drowning Filipino fishermen and other S. China Sea free trade disruptions, and most recently a possible invasion of Taiwan. The possibility of a PLA invasion of Taiwan is why America has invested billions into building chip factories on-shore. As soon as the PLA launches, Taiwan is forced to destroy its own chip factories and other critical infrastructure. I have zero faith that a CCP dominated world would be a net benefit. It is an exclusionary repressive government, it likes to purge its people randomly, and in general is just not easy to get along with. It also has a boardroom despot that's a dictator. Same thing with Russians, they have been under the rule of some truly awful people and that's just how it is at the end of the day, nothing personal. I don't need to go on a VPN and be afraid to speak my mind here because being honest about our shortcomings and past is how we forge an actually better tomorrow. The US also exports culture. I've been around the world, and I see people wearing NBA jerseys or going crazy in the theater watching Marvel movies with subtitles. Even the media in other countries is so heavily derivative of American culture, like pop idol bands or any TV show literally looks like American media from 10-20 years ago but in a different language that I enjoy with subtitles because it is nice to hear a different language and see the scenery there. (Really brings to light what I meant about copy/pasting or stealing from us, in literally every regard though) They love being American, and acting like it too sometimes. That’s the beauty of America, that anyone can join (legally if physically, otherwise just vibing), and it only makes us stronger. I don’t see anyone lining up to "be Chinese" or "be Russian" in the same way, almost always the other way around. Even our biggest haters are rocking American fashion with their fighter kits lol.