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The words "good" and "very bad" indicate that the world is less important to that person than themselves. I'd be okay with a bit of personal harm if it helps ag

The words "good" and "very bad" indicate that the world is less important to that person than themselves. I'd be okay with a bit of personal harm if it helps against climate change. Ultra-processed food does not have an agreed-upon definition, and is the new "junk food" with the pretense of being more scientific. Is bread and pizza ultra-processed food? Studies do not agree on their definitions, sometimes including ingredient lists, sometimes not, sometimes it is required that the product is made in small shops with love and not in large factories. The mechanism of how ultra-processed food are supposed to cause harm remains undefined.

mjevans 1y ago
I was extremely dismayed when that supermarket simulator game that got popular on Twitch called 'pizza' something along the line of 'frozen dessert pie'... At least the way it tends to get made in the US, a sugary pastry that's stuffed full of sugar, carbs, fats and cheese? Ok yeah, my favorite foods are _all_ terrible for me and I can't eat them anymore. This makes me very sad.
- pacifika 1y ago
  Why not make pizza at home?
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    Pizza at home is my pet peeve. Lots of work working the dough, lots of waiting, super messy. Needs expensive oven and tons of electricity. All of this work to get one of the cheapest meal available. Now compare to a steak - add salt, 5 minutes on pan, rest. Better than $50 steak at most restaurants.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      I get that pizza at home is a whole hobby, yes. And if you don't want to do it, it's all of those things that you say. 1) My pizza oven runs on gas not electricity. Not that this is better environmentally. Some run on wood. 2) I'm getting better results than I can get in a local pizza place. Cheap pizza is not great pizza. Home pizza making has a learning curve, it's more of a niche thing than e.g. cooking a steak or burger. For grandparent post, Pizza is of course not a "dessert", it's a savoury main course. Full of white flour, cheese fats, and salt. So also not health food.
dfxm12 1y ago
If one is truly worried about both, they don't have to eat beyond meat though. They can eat rice and beans. Eating rice and beans instead of both conventional and beyond meat is bad for beyond meat, too, I guess.
abdullahkhalids 1y ago
> Ultra-processed food does not have an agreed-upon definition The United Nations Food and Agriculture authority have designed the NOVA classification of food[1, 2], which includes ultra-processed food as a category. [1] https://openknowledge.fao.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/5277b379-0acb-4d97-a6a3-602774104629/content https://openknowledge.fao.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/527... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification
- WA 1y ago
  NOVA is criticized to be unscientific: https://afgc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/UPF-Scientific-Critique-new.pdf https://afgc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/UPF-Scientifi...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
baby 1y ago
Ultra processed food is food you wouldn't be able to make at home from whole ingredients. It's easy to make bread and pizza.
- gizmo686 1y ago
  I might be able to figure out how to grind wheat into flour for bread. Maybe I can squint hard enough to consider baking yeast to be a "whole ingredient". But cheese? I assume I can probably figure it out with the internet, but it is not at all obvious what goes into that. And the milk I would use almost certainly went through an industrial sterilization process that I know I am not equipped to so.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - internet_points 1y ago
    You can make ricotta in <1h with whole milk, vinegar and a bit of salt. And it's good on pizza! But most "regular" cheeses like Swiss cheese also need rennet, ie. you need to slaughter a calf and scrape its stomach lining. You may want to make sure your downstairs neighbor is OK with the procedure before you start (offer them a veal dinner to make up for the noise?). Other than that, it's basically (unpasteurized) milk, salt and water. And time. Yeast: take a sourdough baking class. You just need air, water and (organic) flour.
  - lopis 1y ago
    Your ignorance of the process or recipe of a food product doesn't affect the definition of ultra processed food. No amount of knowledge will let you make something like ultra processed foods at home with home equipment simply because it uses industrial processes and ingredients. Naturally there is a spectrum of processed-ness.
- UncleMeat 1y ago
  And yet, pizza regularly appears on lists of "ultra processed" foods. As do potato chips and ice cream, two foods that are also very easy to make at home from whole ingredients. There is no consistent definition and people regularly bend over backward to put all "junk food" in this category.
parasti 1y ago
I read "cancer" in between the lines of that comment. So the characterization of (potentially) that backdrop as "a bit of personal harm" feels wildly overassuming.
dokyun 1y ago
> The words "good" and "very bad" indicate that the world is less important to that person than themselves. I'd be okay with a bit of personal harm if it helps against climate change. Yeah, no shit? We're not ants in a colony. I think you're pretty stupid if you're alright with harming yourself while achieving nothing. If you wanna risk your life for a cause then take direct action, eating processed slop and pretending to feel good about it is only gonna make both your world and mine shittier.
- KempyKolibri 1y ago
  The thing is, we don’t even have good evidence that UPF is necessarily harmful. Whey protein is UPF, but is associated with positive outcomes. Mass produced wholemeal bread is UPF, but is associated with good outcomes. I’m not convinced that the “UPF” category adds anything useful over “HFSS” at this point. Happy to be pushed off my view, but seen nothing that would do so thus far.
timeon 1y ago
One does not need to eat these "ultra-processed" foods when reducing meat consumption.
pacifika 1y ago
You can debate semantics / definitions or make an assessment and get most of the benefit.
- rat9988 1y ago
  He is saying that the assessment is wrongly done.

mjevans 1y ago

I was extremely dismayed when that supermarket simulator game that got popular on Twitch called 'pizza' something along the line of 'frozen dessert pie'... At least the way it tends to get made in the US, a sugary pastry that's stuffed full of sugar, carbs, fats and cheese? Ok yeah, my favorite foods are _all_ terrible for me and I can't eat them anymore. This makes me very sad.

pacifika 1y ago
Why not make pizza at home?
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  Pizza at home is my pet peeve. Lots of work working the dough, lots of waiting, super messy. Needs expensive oven and tons of electricity. All of this work to get one of the cheapest meal available. Now compare to a steak - add salt, 5 minutes on pan, rest. Better than $50 steak at most restaurants.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    I get that pizza at home is a whole hobby, yes. And if you don't want to do it, it's all of those things that you say. 1) My pizza oven runs on gas not electricity. Not that this is better environmentally. Some run on wood. 2) I'm getting better results than I can get in a local pizza place. Cheap pizza is not great pizza. Home pizza making has a learning curve, it's more of a niche thing than e.g. cooking a steak or burger. For grandparent post, Pizza is of course not a "dessert", it's a savoury main course. Full of white flour, cheese fats, and salt. So also not health food.

dfxm12 1y ago

If one is truly worried about both, they don't have to eat beyond meat though. They can eat rice and beans. Eating rice and beans instead of both conventional and beyond meat is bad for beyond meat, too, I guess.

abdullahkhalids 1y ago

> Ultra-processed food does not have an agreed-upon definition The United Nations Food and Agriculture authority have designed the NOVA classification of food[1, 2], which includes ultra-processed food as a category. [1] https://openknowledge.fao.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/5277b379-0acb-4d97-a6a3-602774104629/content https://openknowledge.fao.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/527... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification

WA 1y ago
NOVA is criticized to be unscientific: https://afgc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/UPF-Scientific-Critique-new.pdf https://afgc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/UPF-Scientifi...
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

baby 1y ago

Ultra processed food is food you wouldn't be able to make at home from whole ingredients. It's easy to make bread and pizza.

gizmo686 1y ago
I might be able to figure out how to grind wheat into flour for bread. Maybe I can squint hard enough to consider baking yeast to be a "whole ingredient". But cheese? I assume I can probably figure it out with the internet, but it is not at all obvious what goes into that. And the milk I would use almost certainly went through an industrial sterilization process that I know I am not equipped to so.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- internet_points 1y ago
  You can make ricotta in <1h with whole milk, vinegar and a bit of salt. And it's good on pizza! But most "regular" cheeses like Swiss cheese also need rennet, ie. you need to slaughter a calf and scrape its stomach lining. You may want to make sure your downstairs neighbor is OK with the procedure before you start (offer them a veal dinner to make up for the noise?). Other than that, it's basically (unpasteurized) milk, salt and water. And time. Yeast: take a sourdough baking class. You just need air, water and (organic) flour.
- lopis 1y ago
  Your ignorance of the process or recipe of a food product doesn't affect the definition of ultra processed food. No amount of knowledge will let you make something like ultra processed foods at home with home equipment simply because it uses industrial processes and ingredients. Naturally there is a spectrum of processed-ness.
UncleMeat 1y ago
And yet, pizza regularly appears on lists of "ultra processed" foods. As do potato chips and ice cream, two foods that are also very easy to make at home from whole ingredients. There is no consistent definition and people regularly bend over backward to put all "junk food" in this category.

parasti 1y ago

I read "cancer" in between the lines of that comment. So the characterization of (potentially) that backdrop as "a bit of personal harm" feels wildly overassuming.

dokyun 1y ago

> The words "good" and "very bad" indicate that the world is less important to that person than themselves. I'd be okay with a bit of personal harm if it helps against climate change. Yeah, no shit? We're not ants in a colony. I think you're pretty stupid if you're alright with harming yourself while achieving nothing. If you wanna risk your life for a cause then take direct action, eating processed slop and pretending to feel good about it is only gonna make both your world and mine shittier.

KempyKolibri 1y ago
The thing is, we don’t even have good evidence that UPF is necessarily harmful. Whey protein is UPF, but is associated with positive outcomes. Mass produced wholemeal bread is UPF, but is associated with good outcomes. I’m not convinced that the “UPF” category adds anything useful over “HFSS” at this point. Happy to be pushed off my view, but seen nothing that would do so thus far.

timeon 1y ago

One does not need to eat these "ultra-processed" foods when reducing meat consumption.

pacifika 1y ago

You can debate semantics / definitions or make an assessment and get most of the benefit.

rat9988 1y ago
He is saying that the assessment is wrongly done.