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I recently started using a nano-hydroxyapatite based toothpaste. It can't restore enamel but does better at remineralization than fluoride, hopefully it will b

by iaw 1y ago

I recently started using a nano-hydroxyapatite based toothpaste. It can't restore enamel but does better at remineralization than fluoride, hopefully it will be a good intermediate for me until something regenerative is available.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
lend000 1y ago
It seems to me the two are effectively the same unless you have significantly misshaped teeth (remineralizing vs regenerating). I also use hydroxyapatite, just to reduce my fluoride exposure, although I believe fluoride is supposed to be a more potent remineralizer (and fluorapatite is allegedly stronger than natural hydroxyapatite). But the upside is that I don't mind swishing hydroxyapatite around in my mouth for 10 minutes, twice a day, so whenever I go to the dentist, I'm the healthiest mouth of the day (not the case pre-hydroxyapatite tooth paste/powder).
- BenjiWiebe 1y ago
  What product(s) do you recommend? I'm in the US.
  - agensaequivocum 1y ago
    https://betterbiom.com/products/nobs-toothpaste-tablets https://betterbiom.com/products/nobs-toothpaste-tablets
    - CGMthrowaway 1y ago
      Nobs is good because they only use rod-shaped NHA, not needle-shaped NHA which has a worse safety profile. Safety profile is important for anything nano
      - zubairshaik 1y ago
        Is there anywhere I can learn more about NHA shapes? I currently use Apagard Renamel.
        CGMthrowaway 1y ago
        Here is the EU safety opinion. https://health.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-08/sccs_o_246.pdf https://health.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-08/sccs_o_246.... IDK how to tell what brand uses what type without independent testing or taking their word for it. Several makers have come out and said needle-shaped is cheaper to buy so if a brand has 10% formulation as opposed to 1 or 3 or 5%, it is more likely to be using needle-shaped. (And there is a separate conversation to be had whether 10% is needed/ideal concentration anyway)
  - lend000 1y ago
    I've used these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F2MW3G2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F2MW3G2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078YFQZK7 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078YFQZK7
- gamblor956 1y ago
  NHAP particles are smaller than fluoride particles, so they're able to penetrate farther into the porous surface of the teeth; flouride basically can only coat the surface. There is some research indicating that NHAP is more effective than flouride at remineralizing (e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4252862/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4252862/) but that flouride is more protective than NHAP because NHAP isn't protective at all. (The flouride creates a temporary sacrificial enamel-like shell layer that closes off pores in the surface of the teeth in addition to buffering acids; the NHAP will just create new enamel.) My dentist says that NHAP is great if you have lots of cavities or drink lots of acidic drinks like soda, but once your enamel is repaired too much of NHAP can actually cause weird growths. Dave's toothpaste has both NHAP and flouride (and the sensitivity agent used in Sensyodyne) if you're looking for the best of all worlds in the U.S.
  - krackers 1y ago
    >Dave's toothpaste has both NHAP and flouride And has an RDA of 101. Why on earth would a toothpaste meant for sensitivity have this high of an RDA? (Non-whitening sensodyne is around the 40s)
    - buu700 1y ago
      After doing some research, I decided to go for this one: https://drjennatural.com/products/dr-jen-super-paste-with-nano-hydroxyapatite-fluoride https://drjennatural.com/products/dr-jen-super-paste-with-na.... 10% nHAP (rod-shaped), RDA under 50 (exact number unspecified), nothing obviously objectionable in the ingredients, and comes with or without fluoride. My only minor quibble is that I couldn't determine the exact range of HAP particle sizes, which some other vendors do list. On the other hand, it has some strong reviews that seem credible, and there aren't many other options that explicitly provide 10% nHAP with a low RDA, and even fewer that offer a fluoridated version on top of that. SuperMouth also looked like a great option with an RDA of 67 (particularly for kids who like crazy flavors), and Elims also looked good for anyone who doesn't mind the 92.71 RDA. Ollie stood out for its minimal ingredients list, but turned out to have a relatively high RDA of 143. I currently use BioMin C in the morning and F at night, but based on everything I'm learning right now about nHAP, I figure it can't hurt to stack Dr. Jen with those. Maybe in a few years I'll get some keratin in the mix too.
eth0up 1y ago
Hydroxyapatite based paste is incredible, and has astonished a few of my incredulous friends dealing with dental problems. It always seemed very interesting in a cynical way that Sensodyne Repair and Protect has a European version with hydroxyapatite but doesn't offer it in the US. The only reputable US brand I'm aware of is Dr Collins Biomin, which is excellent but weak on the hydroxyapatite. I'll be abused for it here, but I'm intractably convinced the ADA and generally despicable US health industry prefer to avoid it due to its efficacy and how much revenue would be lost if it were more common. Say what you will against this, and I'll remain convinced.
- BenjiWiebe 1y ago
  What product(s) do you recommend? I'm in the US.
  - eth0up 1y ago
    Either Biomin, or my first choice, Apagard (from Japan). Biomin is cleaner, but weaker. I generally choose Apagard though. If you do too, the Premio is a good version with a substantial hydroxyapatite content. Try to buy from a reputable seller if Apagard. I'd not worry about Biomin much. Edit: also note that these are rinseless pastes, intended to remain on the teeth for as long as they linger. This is where Biomin has an advantage, being cleaner. Spitting is fine, but rinsing will reduce efficacy. Edit II: Some will wail in disagreement. I think a waterjet can literally add years to the average lifespan while helping with oral health. Maybe consider one, with simple design and minimal features.
  - chucky_z 1y ago
    Smart mouth has a flouride + hydroxyapetite. I’ve been using it for a few months now and all my tooth pain is completely gone. I’ve been dealing with issues for years and have a wonderful dentist but really had to get myself in shape and brush 2x and really floss correctly. Anyway, that toothpaste also helped compared to only stannous fluoride paste.
  - gamblor956 1y ago
    Dave's is available in the U.S. and has NHAP, flouride, and the anti-sensitivity stuff from Sensodyne.
chucky_z 1y ago
To everyone reading this you should still use flouride! Flouride and nanohydroxyapetite together both strengthen the outside layer of your teeth while strengthening the inside of them. Either alone is good, both together are great.
- iaw 1y ago
  Oh! To clarify. I use fluoride in the morning and hydroxyapatite at night.

by iaw 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

lend000 1y ago

It seems to me the two are effectively the same unless you have significantly misshaped teeth (remineralizing vs regenerating). I also use hydroxyapatite, just to reduce my fluoride exposure, although I believe fluoride is supposed to be a more potent remineralizer (and fluorapatite is allegedly stronger than natural hydroxyapatite). But the upside is that I don't mind swishing hydroxyapatite around in my mouth for 10 minutes, twice a day, so whenever I go to the dentist, I'm the healthiest mouth of the day (not the case pre-hydroxyapatite tooth paste/powder).

BenjiWiebe 1y ago
What product(s) do you recommend? I'm in the US.
- agensaequivocum 1y ago
  https://betterbiom.com/products/nobs-toothpaste-tablets https://betterbiom.com/products/nobs-toothpaste-tablets
  - CGMthrowaway 1y ago
    Nobs is good because they only use rod-shaped NHA, not needle-shaped NHA which has a worse safety profile. Safety profile is important for anything nano
    - zubairshaik 1y ago
      Is there anywhere I can learn more about NHA shapes? I currently use Apagard Renamel.
      - CGMthrowaway 1y ago
        Here is the EU safety opinion. https://health.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-08/sccs_o_246.pdf https://health.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-08/sccs_o_246.... IDK how to tell what brand uses what type without independent testing or taking their word for it. Several makers have come out and said needle-shaped is cheaper to buy so if a brand has 10% formulation as opposed to 1 or 3 or 5%, it is more likely to be using needle-shaped. (And there is a separate conversation to be had whether 10% is needed/ideal concentration anyway)
- lend000 1y ago
  I've used these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F2MW3G2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F2MW3G2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078YFQZK7 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078YFQZK7
gamblor956 1y ago
NHAP particles are smaller than fluoride particles, so they're able to penetrate farther into the porous surface of the teeth; flouride basically can only coat the surface. There is some research indicating that NHAP is more effective than flouride at remineralizing (e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4252862/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4252862/) but that flouride is more protective than NHAP because NHAP isn't protective at all. (The flouride creates a temporary sacrificial enamel-like shell layer that closes off pores in the surface of the teeth in addition to buffering acids; the NHAP will just create new enamel.) My dentist says that NHAP is great if you have lots of cavities or drink lots of acidic drinks like soda, but once your enamel is repaired too much of NHAP can actually cause weird growths. Dave's toothpaste has both NHAP and flouride (and the sensitivity agent used in Sensyodyne) if you're looking for the best of all worlds in the U.S.
- krackers 1y ago
  >Dave's toothpaste has both NHAP and flouride And has an RDA of 101. Why on earth would a toothpaste meant for sensitivity have this high of an RDA? (Non-whitening sensodyne is around the 40s)
  - buu700 1y ago
    After doing some research, I decided to go for this one: https://drjennatural.com/products/dr-jen-super-paste-with-nano-hydroxyapatite-fluoride https://drjennatural.com/products/dr-jen-super-paste-with-na.... 10% nHAP (rod-shaped), RDA under 50 (exact number unspecified), nothing obviously objectionable in the ingredients, and comes with or without fluoride. My only minor quibble is that I couldn't determine the exact range of HAP particle sizes, which some other vendors do list. On the other hand, it has some strong reviews that seem credible, and there aren't many other options that explicitly provide 10% nHAP with a low RDA, and even fewer that offer a fluoridated version on top of that. SuperMouth also looked like a great option with an RDA of 67 (particularly for kids who like crazy flavors), and Elims also looked good for anyone who doesn't mind the 92.71 RDA. Ollie stood out for its minimal ingredients list, but turned out to have a relatively high RDA of 143. I currently use BioMin C in the morning and F at night, but based on everything I'm learning right now about nHAP, I figure it can't hurt to stack Dr. Jen with those. Maybe in a few years I'll get some keratin in the mix too.

eth0up 1y ago

Hydroxyapatite based paste is incredible, and has astonished a few of my incredulous friends dealing with dental problems. It always seemed very interesting in a cynical way that Sensodyne Repair and Protect has a European version with hydroxyapatite but doesn't offer it in the US. The only reputable US brand I'm aware of is Dr Collins Biomin, which is excellent but weak on the hydroxyapatite. I'll be abused for it here, but I'm intractably convinced the ADA and generally despicable US health industry prefer to avoid it due to its efficacy and how much revenue would be lost if it were more common. Say what you will against this, and I'll remain convinced.

BenjiWiebe 1y ago
What product(s) do you recommend? I'm in the US.
- eth0up 1y ago
  Either Biomin, or my first choice, Apagard (from Japan). Biomin is cleaner, but weaker. I generally choose Apagard though. If you do too, the Premio is a good version with a substantial hydroxyapatite content. Try to buy from a reputable seller if Apagard. I'd not worry about Biomin much. Edit: also note that these are rinseless pastes, intended to remain on the teeth for as long as they linger. This is where Biomin has an advantage, being cleaner. Spitting is fine, but rinsing will reduce efficacy. Edit II: Some will wail in disagreement. I think a waterjet can literally add years to the average lifespan while helping with oral health. Maybe consider one, with simple design and minimal features.
- chucky_z 1y ago
  Smart mouth has a flouride + hydroxyapetite. I’ve been using it for a few months now and all my tooth pain is completely gone. I’ve been dealing with issues for years and have a wonderful dentist but really had to get myself in shape and brush 2x and really floss correctly. Anyway, that toothpaste also helped compared to only stannous fluoride paste.
- gamblor956 1y ago
  Dave's is available in the U.S. and has NHAP, flouride, and the anti-sensitivity stuff from Sensodyne.

chucky_z 1y ago

To everyone reading this you should still use flouride! Flouride and nanohydroxyapetite together both strengthen the outside layer of your teeth while strengthening the inside of them. Either alone is good, both together are great.

iaw 1y ago
Oh! To clarify. I use fluoride in the morning and hydroxyapatite at night.