7 ms·

A zero-sum mindset on a website dedicated to programming of all places? Where we literally create wealth out of nothing but coffee and the strength of our minds

by akavi 1y ago

A zero-sum mindset on a website dedicated to programming of all places? Where we literally create wealth out of nothing but coffee and the strength of our minds? My love for my country means I want it to be the greatest in the world. Waterloo grads make America better. Period.

philosophty 1y ago
Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum. You're just hand-waiving away reality, which is a very non-programmer thing to do.
- NikolaNovak 1y ago
  A wonderful Book on immigration, math, history, facts, and zero sum From an American author (Illustrated, to reach those who talk about "stealing American jobs from Americans!!!" a lot). From Amazon Canada, because I like fun too :-) "Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration" https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE
  - philosophty 1y ago
    I've never met anyone that argued for open borders that wasn't capable of isolating themselves from the negative effects. Like say, a tenured professor like Bryan Caplan. Open borders might be net-positive but would very predictably devastate the lives of poor people in America. Not that most people who advocate it know anything about being poor.
    - NikolaNovak 1y ago
      Hang on, are we upset that immigrants are taking the jobs of poor people in America? I thought based on original post we were upset immigrants are taking high paying specialist jobs from the rich techies in San Francisco? Or are they just just taking all the jobs while miraculously not spending any money and not creating any demand and not participating in economy at all? I just want to understand this evil scourge appropriately. P.s. (And oh, boy, will I compete in the "knowing about being poor" with anybody on HN :)
      - philosophty 1y ago
        Poor Americans are the most in need of the opportunity tech jobs provide. That's how they can become non-poor Americans. Poor Americans are also the most vulnerable to unskilled immigration making them even poorer than they already are. It's not that complicated.
        prewett 1y ago
        If they are vulnerable to unskilled immigration, that would imply that they are unskilled themselves. I don't see how they will be able to take advantage "opportunity tech jobs provide"--a highly skilled set of jobs. I agree that poor Americans are vulnerable to unskilled immigration, but suggesting that highly skilled tech jobs are a solution is just not realistic.
        philosophty 1y ago
        Many poor people could make it into the middle class by learning to do skilled jobs if given the opportunity. The number of opportunities is significantly reduced when companies have the easier and cheaper alternative of hiring non-Americans. And those poor people that don't have the capability to become skilled workers can at least not be kicked while they're down.
        jufter 1y ago
        > but suggesting that highly skilled tech jobs are a solution is just not realistic. I went from homeless to six figures thanks to tech. I think you are missing that tech is one of the few well paying industries that doesn't have socioeconomic gatekeeping with degrees.
- pj_mukh 1y ago
  Seeing this pablum on Hackernews is quite startling. It seems like its going to remain the "global warming is fake" of the economics world. "Oh but I know of this study that.."...I know..I know.
  - philosophty 1y ago
    Your argument is that all games are non-zero sum and supply and demand don't apply for some magical reason? Seems like I'm making the sound economic argument and you're just casting aspersions.
    - pj_mukh 1y ago
      “Demand is fixed, they're coming or your jobs” is your “Temperatures always rise and fall, there is no global warming”. I'm sorry to be this dismissive, but I've had this conversation too many times and you will simply see what you want to see. There is no convincing coal workers of global warming.
      - philosophty 1y ago
        Your arguments are so convincing you don't even need to make them and there's no chance you're the one that's refusing to acknowledge reality. Okay...
    - NikolaNovak 1y ago
      I think the general overall notion is: 1. If, say, an immigrant earns 70k, they will also spend 70k. It's an equilibrium - they "create" as much jobness as they "take". 2. The easiest intuitive explanation I have is - imagine a million immigrants move in. They're basically a self sufficient city - with police and doctors and teachers and mechanics and salespeople and whatever. Doesn't bother me. In fact, America is by definition (unless one is native American) the land of immigrants. It is clearly factually historically obvious that immigration was not zero sum and it continually expanded overall prosperity and might of the American empire. It's only when we zoom into the very here and now that some people, for some reason, freak out and feel "omg immigrants!!".
- nothercastle 1y ago
  It’s probably negative sum because you end up hiring more offshore workers but still end up spending less
- jdminhbg 1y ago
  > Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum. Not even wrong
mertleee 1y ago
[flagged]
- CapricornNoble 1y ago
  > Americans make america great. We got the moon without indians. Yeah but we got to the moon with imported Nazi German rocket scientists. Still "immigrants" of a sort.
  - dvrj101 1y ago
    yup,Operation Paperclip. This program brought over 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians, many of whom were former members of the Nazi Party and some with SS affiliations, to the U.S. for government employment between 1945 and 1959.

by akavi 1y ago

philosophty 1y ago

Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum. You're just hand-waiving away reality, which is a very non-programmer thing to do.

NikolaNovak 1y ago
A wonderful Book on immigration, math, history, facts, and zero sum From an American author (Illustrated, to reach those who talk about "stealing American jobs from Americans!!!" a lot). From Amazon Canada, because I like fun too :-) "Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration" https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE
- philosophty 1y ago
  I've never met anyone that argued for open borders that wasn't capable of isolating themselves from the negative effects. Like say, a tenured professor like Bryan Caplan. Open borders might be net-positive but would very predictably devastate the lives of poor people in America. Not that most people who advocate it know anything about being poor.
  - NikolaNovak 1y ago
    Hang on, are we upset that immigrants are taking the jobs of poor people in America? I thought based on original post we were upset immigrants are taking high paying specialist jobs from the rich techies in San Francisco? Or are they just just taking all the jobs while miraculously not spending any money and not creating any demand and not participating in economy at all? I just want to understand this evil scourge appropriately. P.s. (And oh, boy, will I compete in the "knowing about being poor" with anybody on HN :)
    - philosophty 1y ago
      Poor Americans are the most in need of the opportunity tech jobs provide. That's how they can become non-poor Americans. Poor Americans are also the most vulnerable to unskilled immigration making them even poorer than they already are. It's not that complicated.
      - prewett 1y ago
        If they are vulnerable to unskilled immigration, that would imply that they are unskilled themselves. I don't see how they will be able to take advantage "opportunity tech jobs provide"--a highly skilled set of jobs. I agree that poor Americans are vulnerable to unskilled immigration, but suggesting that highly skilled tech jobs are a solution is just not realistic.
        philosophty 1y ago
        Many poor people could make it into the middle class by learning to do skilled jobs if given the opportunity. The number of opportunities is significantly reduced when companies have the easier and cheaper alternative of hiring non-Americans. And those poor people that don't have the capability to become skilled workers can at least not be kicked while they're down.
        jufter 1y ago
        > but suggesting that highly skilled tech jobs are a solution is just not realistic. I went from homeless to six figures thanks to tech. I think you are missing that tech is one of the few well paying industries that doesn't have socioeconomic gatekeeping with degrees.
pj_mukh 1y ago
Seeing this pablum on Hackernews is quite startling. It seems like its going to remain the "global warming is fake" of the economics world. "Oh but I know of this study that.."...I know..I know.
- philosophty 1y ago
  Your argument is that all games are non-zero sum and supply and demand don't apply for some magical reason? Seems like I'm making the sound economic argument and you're just casting aspersions.
  - pj_mukh 1y ago
    “Demand is fixed, they're coming or your jobs” is your “Temperatures always rise and fall, there is no global warming”. I'm sorry to be this dismissive, but I've had this conversation too many times and you will simply see what you want to see. There is no convincing coal workers of global warming.
    - philosophty 1y ago
      Your arguments are so convincing you don't even need to make them and there's no chance you're the one that's refusing to acknowledge reality. Okay...
  - NikolaNovak 1y ago
    I think the general overall notion is: 1. If, say, an immigrant earns 70k, they will also spend 70k. It's an equilibrium - they "create" as much jobness as they "take". 2. The easiest intuitive explanation I have is - imagine a million immigrants move in. They're basically a self sufficient city - with police and doctors and teachers and mechanics and salespeople and whatever. Doesn't bother me. In fact, America is by definition (unless one is native American) the land of immigrants. It is clearly factually historically obvious that immigration was not zero sum and it continually expanded overall prosperity and might of the American empire. It's only when we zoom into the very here and now that some people, for some reason, freak out and feel "omg immigrants!!".
nothercastle 1y ago
It’s probably negative sum because you end up hiring more offshore workers but still end up spending less
jdminhbg 1y ago
> Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum. Not even wrong

mertleee 1y ago

[flagged]

CapricornNoble 1y ago
> Americans make america great. We got the moon without indians. Yeah but we got to the moon with imported Nazi German rocket scientists. Still "immigrants" of a sort.
- dvrj101 1y ago
  yup,Operation Paperclip. This program brought over 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians, many of whom were former members of the Nazi Party and some with SS affiliations, to the U.S. for government employment between 1945 and 1959.