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I’ve been agonizing over getting the Framework Desktop for weeks as a dev machine/local LLM box/home server. It checks a lot of boxes but the only reason to loo

by aomix 1y ago

I’ve been agonizing over getting the Framework Desktop for weeks as a dev machine/local LLM box/home server. It checks a lot of boxes but the only reason to look at the Framework Desktop over something like a Minisforum MS-A2 is for the LLM and that seems super janky right now. So I guess I’ll wait a beat and see where we are later in the year.

microtonal 1y ago
My main worry about all the Minisforum, Beelink, etc. PCs is: potential lack of UEFI firmware updates (does anyone have experience with how good they are with updates?) and potential backdoors in the UEFI firmware (either intentionally or unintentionally). A China-aligned/sponsored group has made an UEFI rootkit targetting ASUS/Gigabyte mainboards: https://www.spiceworks.com/it-security/vulnerability-management/news/cosmicstrand-uefi-firmware-rootkit/ https://www.spiceworks.com/it-security/vulnerability-managem... Why not require/compel certain companies to implement them directly?
- starkparker 1y ago
  As a Framework 13 owner, their firmware update history isn't that great either.
  - rgrieselhuber 1y ago
    Any more details you can share?
    - NegativeK 1y ago
      https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/looking-at-frameworks-progress-on-software-support-for-its-repairable-laptops/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/looking-at-framework... has a brief writeup. The summary is that Framework was understaffed and has brought in an established third party to help with firmware and driver updates.
- Shadowmist 1y ago
  I bought 3 Minisforum machines for a Kubernetes cluster and they didn't make it 11 months. They weren't even powered on most of that time. They just completely freeze with a black screen, and randomly enough to where every time I think maybe I figured out a fix it just crashes again a day later.
  - laurencerowe 1y ago
    My Minisforum M780 XTX has been rock solid for 20 months now. Bought it as a remote development box since I needed more RAM than my MacBook Air and didn't feel like shelling out $3K for a 64GB MacBook Pro. Generally prefer the remote development experience since it means the laptop stays cool, just a pain not being able to work at a cafe now and then.
  - d3Xt3r 1y ago
    No issues with my UM 780 XTX, been running mine for about two years as a homelab, running k3s and a bunch of random VMs. Are you sure you didn't buy an Intel one by any change? Because Intel is garbage.
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  Even if there aren't backdoors, things like this[1] affecting AMD Zen CPUs, where microcode signing keys changed and thus the firmware needs to be updated to allow the new keys, would prevent machines from using new microcode updates. [1] https://github.com/divestedcg/real-ucode?tab=readme-ov-file#special-amd-incompatibility-notice-2025-03-02 https://github.com/divestedcg/real-ucode?tab=readme-ov-file#...
oblio 1y ago
How quiet is the Minisforum?
- porphyra 1y ago
  I'm not sure, but you could always just buy the Minisforum BD790i X3D [1]. Then, you'd be able to choose your own fan and case, and you can make it arbitrarily quiet by selecting a good fan. Early BD790i boards had a bug where losing power causes it to reset all BIOS settings, but they fixed that in later batches. I wonder when they will come out with a 9955HX version. Another good thing about this board is that it has two PCIe 5 NVME SSD slots with active cooling, which is a lot better than most other mini ITX boards out there, including the Framework. [1] https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-bd790i-x3d https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-bd790i-x3d
  - bketelsen 1y ago
    I did exactly this, put it in a 2U case. Fantastic performance, but even with the best Noctua I could put on it the CPU fan sounds like a Hawker Harrier doing VTOL when it's under load. Don't regret the board, but wish my rack was in another room now.
    - porphyra 1y ago
      You can adjust some fan settings in the BIOS, like what temperature it starts turning on, the PWM setting when it first turns on, and the temperature at which it hits PWM of 100%. After tuning those a bit, mine is pretty quiet unless I'm compiling with all cores or something.
laweijfmvo 1y ago
probably doesn’t make sense as a home server unless you need the massive compute. i have a couple lenovo mini pcs (m75q, various generations, AMD) that I paid a total of $500 for on ebay. they’re so easy to find and handle most tasks swimmingly.
- Arn_Thor 1y ago
  What kind of tasks do you use it for, if I may ask? Does it include local LLM/AI?
beala 1y ago
Surely if running a local LLM is a goal, you're going to be disappointed by any small form factor desktop. Even an M4 Max is slow compared to a 5 year old rtx 3090, and the M4's only advantage is that it can run larger models, but very slowly [1]. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1jn5uto/macbook_m4_max_isnt_great_for_llms/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1jn5uto/macbook...

by aomix 1y ago

microtonal 1y ago

My main worry about all the Minisforum, Beelink, etc. PCs is: potential lack of UEFI firmware updates (does anyone have experience with how good they are with updates?) and potential backdoors in the UEFI firmware (either intentionally or unintentionally). A China-aligned/sponsored group has made an UEFI rootkit targetting ASUS/Gigabyte mainboards: https://www.spiceworks.com/it-security/vulnerability-management/news/cosmicstrand-uefi-firmware-rootkit/ https://www.spiceworks.com/it-security/vulnerability-managem... Why not require/compel certain companies to implement them directly?

starkparker 1y ago
As a Framework 13 owner, their firmware update history isn't that great either.
- rgrieselhuber 1y ago
  Any more details you can share?
  - NegativeK 1y ago
    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/looking-at-frameworks-progress-on-software-support-for-its-repairable-laptops/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/looking-at-framework... has a brief writeup. The summary is that Framework was understaffed and has brought in an established third party to help with firmware and driver updates.
Shadowmist 1y ago
I bought 3 Minisforum machines for a Kubernetes cluster and they didn't make it 11 months. They weren't even powered on most of that time. They just completely freeze with a black screen, and randomly enough to where every time I think maybe I figured out a fix it just crashes again a day later.
- laurencerowe 1y ago
  My Minisforum M780 XTX has been rock solid for 20 months now. Bought it as a remote development box since I needed more RAM than my MacBook Air and didn't feel like shelling out $3K for a 64GB MacBook Pro. Generally prefer the remote development experience since it means the laptop stays cool, just a pain not being able to work at a cafe now and then.
- d3Xt3r 1y ago
  No issues with my UM 780 XTX, been running mine for about two years as a homelab, running k3s and a bunch of random VMs. Are you sure you didn't buy an Intel one by any change? Because Intel is garbage.
heavyset_go 1y ago
Even if there aren't backdoors, things like this[1] affecting AMD Zen CPUs, where microcode signing keys changed and thus the firmware needs to be updated to allow the new keys, would prevent machines from using new microcode updates. [1] https://github.com/divestedcg/real-ucode?tab=readme-ov-file#special-amd-incompatibility-notice-2025-03-02 https://github.com/divestedcg/real-ucode?tab=readme-ov-file#...

oblio 1y ago

How quiet is the Minisforum?

porphyra 1y ago
I'm not sure, but you could always just buy the Minisforum BD790i X3D [1]. Then, you'd be able to choose your own fan and case, and you can make it arbitrarily quiet by selecting a good fan. Early BD790i boards had a bug where losing power causes it to reset all BIOS settings, but they fixed that in later batches. I wonder when they will come out with a 9955HX version. Another good thing about this board is that it has two PCIe 5 NVME SSD slots with active cooling, which is a lot better than most other mini ITX boards out there, including the Framework. [1] https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-bd790i-x3d https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-bd790i-x3d
- bketelsen 1y ago
  I did exactly this, put it in a 2U case. Fantastic performance, but even with the best Noctua I could put on it the CPU fan sounds like a Hawker Harrier doing VTOL when it's under load. Don't regret the board, but wish my rack was in another room now.
  - porphyra 1y ago
    You can adjust some fan settings in the BIOS, like what temperature it starts turning on, the PWM setting when it first turns on, and the temperature at which it hits PWM of 100%. After tuning those a bit, mine is pretty quiet unless I'm compiling with all cores or something.

laweijfmvo 1y ago

probably doesn’t make sense as a home server unless you need the massive compute. i have a couple lenovo mini pcs (m75q, various generations, AMD) that I paid a total of $500 for on ebay. they’re so easy to find and handle most tasks swimmingly.

Arn_Thor 1y ago
What kind of tasks do you use it for, if I may ask? Does it include local LLM/AI?

beala 1y ago

Surely if running a local LLM is a goal, you're going to be disappointed by any small form factor desktop. Even an M4 Max is slow compared to a 5 year old rtx 3090, and the M4's only advantage is that it can run larger models, but very slowly [1]. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1jn5uto/macbook_m4_max_isnt_great_for_llms/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1jn5uto/macbook...