7 ms·

Absolutely, think "lick" vs "leak". I think the author means Hungarian maybe uses very similar looking letters to denote this (ie "lik" and "lík"). In Hungaria

Absolutely, think "lick" vs "leak". I think the author means Hungarian maybe uses very similar looking letters to denote this (ie "lik" and "lík"). In Hungarian also every vowel comes in pairs of short-long: a-á (what vs high), e-é (ever vs eight), "o-ó" (moss vs most), "u-ú" (put vs you), "ö-ő" (fur vs ... well long version has no English equivalent I think but German does: schön).

bmacho 1y ago
a-á and e-é are not short-long pairs. a is /ɒ/, á is /aː/, e is /ɛ/, é is /eː/. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_exam...
- MarkusQ 1y ago
  From your source (page up a bit): "Hungarian has seven pairs of corresponding short and long vowels. Their phonetic values do not exactly match up with each other, so ⟨e⟩ represents /ɛ/ and ⟨é⟩ represents /eː/; likewise, ⟨a⟩ represents /ɒ/ while ⟨á⟩ represents /aː/.[14] For the other pairs, the short vowels are slightly lower and more central, and the long vowels more peripheral." So yes, they apparently are "short-long pairs".
  - bmacho 1y ago
    No, not in the sense we are talking about it.
    - MarkusQ 1y ago
      Not in the sense _you_ are talking about perhaps? Typically, when people talk about "long" and "short" vowels they are referring to a combination of duration and pronunciation (e.g. English "bat" vs. "bate"), and that appears to be the case here as well. If you are interpreting the terms differently, I'm not sure what sense you have in mind.
      - bmacho 1y ago
        > Typically, when people talk about "long" and "short" vowels they are referring to a combination of duration and pronunciation (e.g. English "bat" vs. "bate"), and that appears to be the case here as well. Finnish vowels and most Hungarian vowels come in short-long pairs that - only their lengths differ, their pronunciations do not (meaning: IPA denotes them with the same letter but with or without a colon) - their lengths are *phonemic*, that is they are *said to be* different phonemes, they are *perceived as* different phonemes, and there are example words that differ only at them You can observe this property in the table I've linked for i, o, ö, u, ü [0]. You can find minimal pairs for them at [1]. (Note that [1] groups these vowel pairs as "Vowels with length difference: I – Í | O – Ó | Ö – Ő | U – Ú | Ü – Ű" which does not include A - Á and E - É.) A-á and e-é are not such pairs. They differ in pronunciation (see the IPA in [0]), and their lengths, while are somewhat defined, never contrast (no minimal pairs for them). Also you can pronounce any of these four with arbitrary length, it will stay the same phoneme. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_exam... [1] : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hungarian_minimal_pairs https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hungarian_minimal_pa... edit: I find your previous quote 'misleading'. I would say 'wrong', but it avoids to say anything factual. At least in out of context--the rest of the wiki page clarifies everything.
        MarkusQ 1y ago
        So yeah, we are talking about different things. Your position sounds cogent and may well be a more accurate description of Hungarian (e.g. that its long/short vowels are more like Latin than English). I don't know Hungarian, so I can't say. The rest of this thread is consistent with people assuming the broader definition of long/short.

bmacho 1y ago

a-á and e-é are not short-long pairs. a is /ɒ/, á is /aː/, e is /ɛ/, é is /eː/. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_exam...

MarkusQ 1y ago
From your source (page up a bit): "Hungarian has seven pairs of corresponding short and long vowels. Their phonetic values do not exactly match up with each other, so ⟨e⟩ represents /ɛ/ and ⟨é⟩ represents /eː/; likewise, ⟨a⟩ represents /ɒ/ while ⟨á⟩ represents /aː/.[14] For the other pairs, the short vowels are slightly lower and more central, and the long vowels more peripheral." So yes, they apparently are "short-long pairs".
- bmacho 1y ago
  No, not in the sense we are talking about it.
  - MarkusQ 1y ago
    Not in the sense _you_ are talking about perhaps? Typically, when people talk about "long" and "short" vowels they are referring to a combination of duration and pronunciation (e.g. English "bat" vs. "bate"), and that appears to be the case here as well. If you are interpreting the terms differently, I'm not sure what sense you have in mind.
    - bmacho 1y ago
      > Typically, when people talk about "long" and "short" vowels they are referring to a combination of duration and pronunciation (e.g. English "bat" vs. "bate"), and that appears to be the case here as well. Finnish vowels and most Hungarian vowels come in short-long pairs that - only their lengths differ, their pronunciations do not (meaning: IPA denotes them with the same letter but with or without a colon) - their lengths are *phonemic*, that is they are *said to be* different phonemes, they are *perceived as* different phonemes, and there are example words that differ only at them You can observe this property in the table I've linked for i, o, ö, u, ü [0]. You can find minimal pairs for them at [1]. (Note that [1] groups these vowel pairs as "Vowels with length difference: I – Í | O – Ó | Ö – Ő | U – Ú | Ü – Ű" which does not include A - Á and E - É.) A-á and e-é are not such pairs. They differ in pronunciation (see the IPA in [0]), and their lengths, while are somewhat defined, never contrast (no minimal pairs for them). Also you can pronounce any of these four with arbitrary length, it will stay the same phoneme. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_exam... [1] : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hungarian_minimal_pairs https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hungarian_minimal_pa... edit: I find your previous quote 'misleading'. I would say 'wrong', but it avoids to say anything factual. At least in out of context--the rest of the wiki page clarifies everything.
      - MarkusQ 1y ago
        So yeah, we are talking about different things. Your position sounds cogent and may well be a more accurate description of Hungarian (e.g. that its long/short vowels are more like Latin than English). I don't know Hungarian, so I can't say. The rest of this thread is consistent with people assuming the broader definition of long/short.