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Yes, disguising this regulatory capture as a concern for consumers on health and safety grounds is a great digression. I have also seen people raise concern abo

Yes, disguising this regulatory capture as a concern for consumers on health and safety grounds is a great digression. I have also seen people raise concern about Slave labour for example. This of course ignores the fact that European retailers often sell the same exact goods from the same Chinese factory, but at a 5-10x markup. And as said these goods are often same of better quality that what I would get from domestic retailers. In case of stickers the one from Temu were were of higher quality. If EU was forcing Temu to abide by EU regulations on health and safety I would be all for it. But they are shutting down competition(change in customs rule on small packages etc) so our domestic retailers can stay inefficient and continue to bleed consumers.

fxtentacle 1y ago
Try buying a fan on Temu which was actually FCC, CE, and UL tested and certified. Sadly, all of these certifications cost money. That means companies who actually did the certification are forced to charge more for the same quality level. Also, Temu is heavily reliant on infrastructure which was paid for by the taxes paid by local companies. The trick how Temu can avoid paying is by lying on the customs forms and declaring business transactions as valueless gifts. I’m not sure I would call fraud prevention as “regulatory capture”.
- crinkly 1y ago
  A fun one is some of the phone chargers on there. Someone at work bought one and found out quickly that there was 240V on the USB-C shell. They were lucky it didn't kill them. That was marked as CE / UL etc because the stickers are cheap. Actually tested stuff costs money. Not a lot more but enough to push them down the ranks.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    I've also had this experience; ordered a box of 10 chargers for $20 for the office, and of course they're built down to that price way below any standard of electrical safety. The "shell" was joined in a way that pulling on it to pull out the plug could detach the back leaving exposed live wiring.
- shivasaxena 1y ago
  > Also, Temu is heavily reliant on infrastructure which was paid for by the taxes paid by local companies. The trick how Temu can avoid paying is by lying on the customs forms and declaring business transactions as valueless gifts. I’m not sure I would call fraud prevention as “regulatory capture”. I'm not aware them labelling business transactions as gifts. As far as I know there has always been 150 euros duty-free threshold and I have been using it to order traditional clothes from India for more than 15 years now. The packages I get from Temu are clearly marked as commercial. Also, in my mind it's arguable if local retailers paid for postal infrastructure. However what in arguable in my mind is that esselunga/carrefour sell me a wine opener for 12 EUR that I can buy for 2 EUR on temu. So I think you should also blame our domestic retailers a fraction of what you blame chinese retailers for bleeding us dry of our hard earned money.
  - fxtentacle 1y ago
    In your example, do you think the 10€ price difference would be enough for hiring a customs agent, paying import duty, and VAT? Because otherwise you’ve just said that Temu only works precisely because they don’t pay import customs like any local company would.
    - shivasaxena 1y ago
      Good point, but custom duty on a 2€ wine opener is no where close to 10€. As far as I know on such goods it ranges for 0-30%. Most of it is just outrageous markup since there's no competition in europe(save again for 1€ mom and pop chinese shops). Not to mention european retailers would get huge bulk discounts on the sticker price of 2€.
      - microtonal 1y ago
        As people have repeatedly pointed out to you, it's not just about VAT and import taxes (do not forget that most European countries have around 20% VAT, which is often also not paid). In contrast to Temu, European companies have to deal with: - Safety testing to ensure it complies with European laws. - Liability. If a product causes harm to someone, they can sue you. - Warranty returns, if a product breaks, you have to repair it or replace it. - Other returns, at least in the EU you can return a product bought online within two weeks, no questions asked. This should not be underestimated, e.g. for European online clothing stores, this is a significant chunk of their orders. People order three pairs of shoes, try them on and return the pairs that they don't want to keep. Best case, the product needs to be inspected by a (paid) human, worst case they have to trash it. Temu does exactly none of that. The reason we have these laws are: companies try to maximize their profits. Getting your house burnt down, your kid lead-poisoned, or getting a broken product without any course for replacement just sucks. So we make companies responsible for what they put on the market. Temu makes money by skipping all of that and externalizing the cost.
rcxdude 1y ago
You /can/ buy adequate stuff on Temu, and if it is indeed the exact same thing as sold by retailers (there's often many variations of a product with the same moulded shell), then you're probably safe. But you can also blatantly buy a huge amount of wildly unsafe shit on it, much more so than other retailers (Amazon's almost as bad, but not quite). And there's no reasonable way for a consumer to tell the difference. And to no-one's surprise, doing the research and taking on the risk of warranties and returns costs money. It's entirely possible for Temu to comply here, but it would mean losing a lot of their competitive edge, because that edge has essentially been regulatory arbitrage (i.e. breaking the rules because they could get away with it).
viraptor 1y ago
> This of course ignores the fact that European retailers often sell the same exact goods from the same Chinese factory, but at a 5-10x markup. The same exact goods, or the same design made by the extra shift in the same factory and at lowest cost? EU companies will usually care about not being sued and not getting too many returns. Temu rando sellers care about items moved, regardless whether they work or not - corners can be cut.
jeppester 1y ago
> This of course ignores the fact that European retailers often sell the same exact goods from the same Chinese factory, but at a 5-10x markup. And as said these goods are often same of better quality that what I would get from domestic retailers. In case of stickers the one from Temu were were of higher quality. The rules are not about where the goods are produced, they are about whether or not the goods are safe. > If EU was forcing Temu to abide by EU regulations on health and safety I would be all for it. But they are shutting down competition(change in customs rule on small packages etc) so our domestic retailers can stay inefficient and continue to bleed consumers. Forcing Temu to abide by the regulations is exactly what the EU is doing here. If it was solely about shutting down competition, there would surely be a handful of European shops selling all kinds of goods legal or not, just like Temu.
- shivasaxena 1y ago
  I don't think it's correct. The 150 eur exemption on custom duty on small packets has been revoked for years now, and now EU is also introducing some more tariffs. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq699ymm81vo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq699ymm81vo

fxtentacle 1y ago

Try buying a fan on Temu which was actually FCC, CE, and UL tested and certified. Sadly, all of these certifications cost money. That means companies who actually did the certification are forced to charge more for the same quality level. Also, Temu is heavily reliant on infrastructure which was paid for by the taxes paid by local companies. The trick how Temu can avoid paying is by lying on the customs forms and declaring business transactions as valueless gifts. I’m not sure I would call fraud prevention as “regulatory capture”.

crinkly 1y ago
A fun one is some of the phone chargers on there. Someone at work bought one and found out quickly that there was 240V on the USB-C shell. They were lucky it didn't kill them. That was marked as CE / UL etc because the stickers are cheap. Actually tested stuff costs money. Not a lot more but enough to push them down the ranks.
- pjc50 1y ago
  I've also had this experience; ordered a box of 10 chargers for $20 for the office, and of course they're built down to that price way below any standard of electrical safety. The "shell" was joined in a way that pulling on it to pull out the plug could detach the back leaving exposed live wiring.
shivasaxena 1y ago
> Also, Temu is heavily reliant on infrastructure which was paid for by the taxes paid by local companies. The trick how Temu can avoid paying is by lying on the customs forms and declaring business transactions as valueless gifts. I’m not sure I would call fraud prevention as “regulatory capture”. I'm not aware them labelling business transactions as gifts. As far as I know there has always been 150 euros duty-free threshold and I have been using it to order traditional clothes from India for more than 15 years now. The packages I get from Temu are clearly marked as commercial. Also, in my mind it's arguable if local retailers paid for postal infrastructure. However what in arguable in my mind is that esselunga/carrefour sell me a wine opener for 12 EUR that I can buy for 2 EUR on temu. So I think you should also blame our domestic retailers a fraction of what you blame chinese retailers for bleeding us dry of our hard earned money.
- fxtentacle 1y ago
  In your example, do you think the 10€ price difference would be enough for hiring a customs agent, paying import duty, and VAT? Because otherwise you’ve just said that Temu only works precisely because they don’t pay import customs like any local company would.
  - shivasaxena 1y ago
    Good point, but custom duty on a 2€ wine opener is no where close to 10€. As far as I know on such goods it ranges for 0-30%. Most of it is just outrageous markup since there's no competition in europe(save again for 1€ mom and pop chinese shops). Not to mention european retailers would get huge bulk discounts on the sticker price of 2€.
    - microtonal 1y ago
      As people have repeatedly pointed out to you, it's not just about VAT and import taxes (do not forget that most European countries have around 20% VAT, which is often also not paid). In contrast to Temu, European companies have to deal with: - Safety testing to ensure it complies with European laws. - Liability. If a product causes harm to someone, they can sue you. - Warranty returns, if a product breaks, you have to repair it or replace it. - Other returns, at least in the EU you can return a product bought online within two weeks, no questions asked. This should not be underestimated, e.g. for European online clothing stores, this is a significant chunk of their orders. People order three pairs of shoes, try them on and return the pairs that they don't want to keep. Best case, the product needs to be inspected by a (paid) human, worst case they have to trash it. Temu does exactly none of that. The reason we have these laws are: companies try to maximize their profits. Getting your house burnt down, your kid lead-poisoned, or getting a broken product without any course for replacement just sucks. So we make companies responsible for what they put on the market. Temu makes money by skipping all of that and externalizing the cost.

rcxdude 1y ago

You /can/ buy adequate stuff on Temu, and if it is indeed the exact same thing as sold by retailers (there's often many variations of a product with the same moulded shell), then you're probably safe. But you can also blatantly buy a huge amount of wildly unsafe shit on it, much more so than other retailers (Amazon's almost as bad, but not quite). And there's no reasonable way for a consumer to tell the difference. And to no-one's surprise, doing the research and taking on the risk of warranties and returns costs money. It's entirely possible for Temu to comply here, but it would mean losing a lot of their competitive edge, because that edge has essentially been regulatory arbitrage (i.e. breaking the rules because they could get away with it).

viraptor 1y ago

> This of course ignores the fact that European retailers often sell the same exact goods from the same Chinese factory, but at a 5-10x markup. The same exact goods, or the same design made by the extra shift in the same factory and at lowest cost? EU companies will usually care about not being sued and not getting too many returns. Temu rando sellers care about items moved, regardless whether they work or not - corners can be cut.

jeppester 1y ago

> This of course ignores the fact that European retailers often sell the same exact goods from the same Chinese factory, but at a 5-10x markup. And as said these goods are often same of better quality that what I would get from domestic retailers. In case of stickers the one from Temu were were of higher quality. The rules are not about where the goods are produced, they are about whether or not the goods are safe. > If EU was forcing Temu to abide by EU regulations on health and safety I would be all for it. But they are shutting down competition(change in customs rule on small packages etc) so our domestic retailers can stay inefficient and continue to bleed consumers. Forcing Temu to abide by the regulations is exactly what the EU is doing here. If it was solely about shutting down competition, there would surely be a handful of European shops selling all kinds of goods legal or not, just like Temu.

shivasaxena 1y ago
I don't think it's correct. The 150 eur exemption on custom duty on small packets has been revoked for years now, and now EU is also introducing some more tariffs. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq699ymm81vo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq699ymm81vo