5 ms·

I understand the comment. Of course the thought has crossed my mind. But I'm not so sure there's any evidence to support it. I actually test some of my ideas

I understand the comment. Of course the thought has crossed my mind. But I'm not so sure there's any evidence to support it. I actually test some of my ideas with people like your mother, and surprisingly (why should I be surprised?) they have little trouble catching on. What's really amusing is that these things that I have them doing are things that many nerds cannot themsleves do. I've got them using systems and techniques that many nerds won't touch because they think it's too "hard core". It's hilarious. There are lots and lots of unfounded assumptions about what users can and cannot do. There are facts, supported by evidence. And then there are assumptions. One requires a bit of work. The other is effortless: you just hit "Submit".

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
arn 14y ago
I understand the comment. Of course the thought has crossed my mind. But I'm not so sure there's any evidence to support it. Your post is vague enough that I have a hard time parsing it. No evidence for what? That there is such a thing as a "non techy" user? The evidence is overwhelming, including anecdotal evidence from practically every "techy" person here who have ever had to help their family/friends with a computer issue. And it's not a question of ability, it's a question of ability + caring enough. The non-tech people might not care to boot an OS from a CF Card -- certainly not enough to seek out how to learn it. To mom-type: Here's an iPad, you can use it to easily email your friends, check facebook, and check the web. or... Here's an iPaq 2012, you can do all the above, but it's a little harder to use, HOWEVER you can boot any linux distribution you want, add a USB device, attach ANY keyboard -- like one with mechanical switches! I personally prefer the Cherry Blues, but you might want to try the Topre ones. People who use those never go back. They cost a bit more ($~250), and you have to get it imported from Asia or find a U.S. distributor... but it's worth it.
- smartkids 14y ago
  anecdotal evidence indeed. that's precisely the point. there is no empirical evidence behind the vast majority of comments like these. conclusions without evidence or any indication of the methods used to arrive at them. linux? are you kidding? this is exactly what i was referring to: assumptions. how did you conclude by booting an os i meant linux? a true apple fanboy. thanks for sharing.
  - arn 14y ago
    that's precisely the point. there is no empirical evidence behind the vast majority of comments like these. Are you being purposefully vague? No empirical evidence of what? I'll counter that there is overwhelming evidence, but I'll share specifics once I know what your claim is. :)
    - smartkids 14y ago
      no empirical evidence to support the original statement he made: "the market for people like [me] is not very large" for one, what does "people like me" mean? people who can make use of non-apple hardware? what sort of uses? i don't know what he meant. i could take a guess. but then i would be making an _assumption_. and i might be dead wrong. and that's what you did in your comment. you made some assumptions. what were they? i already told you one: you assumed the os a "mom-type" would run would be various linux distros. what if it's not linux?
      - arn 14y ago
        You are still being excessively vague -- for reasons which I presume you don't actually wish to debate this topic.
        smartkids 14y ago
        and you're not answering my questions. what are we debating? i'm happy to debate. here's my guess: we're debating whether mdonahue's statement "people like you are not a large market, unfortunately" is true. however as i pointed out, we haven't agreed on what "people like me" means. we cannot debate this statement until we have agreed on a definition for that. then we have to consider what is meant by a "large market". what is a "large market"? then we have to decide whether this what is assrted in his statement, if true, is "unfortunate" or not. or maybe we can skip that since it seems like just a mdonahue opinion. is this explanation still too vague for you? i'm not sure how much more specific i can get.
mdonahoe 14y ago
Did they fully understand the reasoning behind the techniques you taught, or was it just memorization? I have taught my mom how to do certain things, but she has no intuition. As soon as something is slightly wrong or different, she gets stuck and can't move on. The solution is always something simple, like relaunching the app, installing an update, power cycling the computer, jiggling the usb cord, modifying the permissions on a file... but there are only so many contingency plans I can teach her. Maybe I just suck at teaching, but I think that technical people have an incredibly curiosity and comfort with troubleshooting that people like my mom don't. We are basically playing on our computers. With the iPad, my mom is finally playing too. She is really adept at it. Sending photos, checking facebook, downloading new apps, she was never comfortable doing any of this on the computer. Too many choices and settings and things to potentially screw up that she would be paralyzed, unable to explore and try things. Ultimately I think the home button is the most important thing in the iOS ecosystem. If all else fails, go home and everything will be fine*. (Unless your battery dies, or there is lint in the charging port, or your screen shatters, or you muted it, or you turned on airplane mode... it's not perfect...)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- smartkids 14y ago
  Making your Mom deal with permissions? Yikes. I think reasoning, in addition to basic instructions, is important even though some people might not care about it. By leaving it out you deny those who do care an opportunity to learn. And to me it just seems more respectable when someone asks you to do something and tells you why you are doing it then if they just give you bare instructions. (That said, the bare instructions should be able tostand on their own. They had better work, every time.) Moreover, providing reasoning forces you to demonstrate you know the subject matter well enough to be able to explain it.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

arn 14y ago

I understand the comment. Of course the thought has crossed my mind. But I'm not so sure there's any evidence to support it. Your post is vague enough that I have a hard time parsing it. No evidence for what? That there is such a thing as a "non techy" user? The evidence is overwhelming, including anecdotal evidence from practically every "techy" person here who have ever had to help their family/friends with a computer issue. And it's not a question of ability, it's a question of ability + caring enough. The non-tech people might not care to boot an OS from a CF Card -- certainly not enough to seek out how to learn it. To mom-type: Here's an iPad, you can use it to easily email your friends, check facebook, and check the web. or... Here's an iPaq 2012, you can do all the above, but it's a little harder to use, HOWEVER you can boot any linux distribution you want, add a USB device, attach ANY keyboard -- like one with mechanical switches! I personally prefer the Cherry Blues, but you might want to try the Topre ones. People who use those never go back. They cost a bit more ($~250), and you have to get it imported from Asia or find a U.S. distributor... but it's worth it.

smartkids 14y ago
anecdotal evidence indeed. that's precisely the point. there is no empirical evidence behind the vast majority of comments like these. conclusions without evidence or any indication of the methods used to arrive at them. linux? are you kidding? this is exactly what i was referring to: assumptions. how did you conclude by booting an os i meant linux? a true apple fanboy. thanks for sharing.
- arn 14y ago
  that's precisely the point. there is no empirical evidence behind the vast majority of comments like these. Are you being purposefully vague? No empirical evidence of what? I'll counter that there is overwhelming evidence, but I'll share specifics once I know what your claim is. :)
  - smartkids 14y ago
    no empirical evidence to support the original statement he made: "the market for people like [me] is not very large" for one, what does "people like me" mean? people who can make use of non-apple hardware? what sort of uses? i don't know what he meant. i could take a guess. but then i would be making an _assumption_. and i might be dead wrong. and that's what you did in your comment. you made some assumptions. what were they? i already told you one: you assumed the os a "mom-type" would run would be various linux distros. what if it's not linux?
    - arn 14y ago
      You are still being excessively vague -- for reasons which I presume you don't actually wish to debate this topic.
      - smartkids 14y ago
        and you're not answering my questions. what are we debating? i'm happy to debate. here's my guess: we're debating whether mdonahue's statement "people like you are not a large market, unfortunately" is true. however as i pointed out, we haven't agreed on what "people like me" means. we cannot debate this statement until we have agreed on a definition for that. then we have to consider what is meant by a "large market". what is a "large market"? then we have to decide whether this what is assrted in his statement, if true, is "unfortunate" or not. or maybe we can skip that since it seems like just a mdonahue opinion. is this explanation still too vague for you? i'm not sure how much more specific i can get.

mdonahoe 14y ago

Did they fully understand the reasoning behind the techniques you taught, or was it just memorization? I have taught my mom how to do certain things, but she has no intuition. As soon as something is slightly wrong or different, she gets stuck and can't move on. The solution is always something simple, like relaunching the app, installing an update, power cycling the computer, jiggling the usb cord, modifying the permissions on a file... but there are only so many contingency plans I can teach her. Maybe I just suck at teaching, but I think that technical people have an incredibly curiosity and comfort with troubleshooting that people like my mom don't. We are basically playing on our computers. With the iPad, my mom is finally playing too. She is really adept at it. Sending photos, checking facebook, downloading new apps, she was never comfortable doing any of this on the computer. Too many choices and settings and things to potentially screw up that she would be paralyzed, unable to explore and try things. Ultimately I think the home button is the most important thing in the iOS ecosystem. If all else fails, go home and everything will be fine*. (Unless your battery dies, or there is lint in the charging port, or your screen shatters, or you muted it, or you turned on airplane mode... it's not perfect...)

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
smartkids 14y ago
Making your Mom deal with permissions? Yikes. I think reasoning, in addition to basic instructions, is important even though some people might not care about it. By leaving it out you deny those who do care an opportunity to learn. And to me it just seems more respectable when someone asks you to do something and tells you why you are doing it then if they just give you bare instructions. (That said, the bare instructions should be able tostand on their own. They had better work, every time.) Moreover, providing reasoning forces you to demonstrate you know the subject matter well enough to be able to explain it.