6 ms·

I think this really undervalues what Linux provides. The Android software is Linux software.

by MatthewPhillips 1y ago

fsflover 1y ago
It's completely incompatible, so in practice it's a different OS. Doesn't mean it's not valuable.
- hagbard_c 1y ago
  Try Termux and you'll be surprised how much 'Linux' software runs fine on Android, this includes things made to run under X11 etc.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    https://github.com/termux-play-store/ https://github.com/termux-play-store/
    - jraph 1y ago
      What's your point? This mess is caused by Google policies, not technical considerations. You can still install Termux from F-Droid. We can argue about Android being a horrible OS for all sorts of reasons but that's a separate discussion.
      - fsflover 1y ago
        Touché.
      - jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        > Almost every Android version imposes new major restrictions when it comes to security requirements, and specifically the Android 10 version update was dramatic for Termux usage, as it disallowed executing downloaded files directly. > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ For now it's not a huge barrier to Termux running. We can go run Android 2 stuff today, & maybe Android will forever be backwards compatible. It does mean that Termux can't build a top or use any new Android features. Termux is glued to a truly ancient version of Android, because Android became inhospitable to basic Linux userland use cases. Seems its mostly about being unable to run downloaded code, which feels admittedly like very much "just a technicality", but boy oh boy has that technicality kept Android from expanding outside of its own bespoke userland.
        jraph 1y ago
        > > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. > Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ Wait, no, Termux is not stuck at Gingerbread, it's stuck at Android 9 (Pie). Agree with the rest though. Android is a sinking ship, not only the Termux issue, but the increasing number of basic apps and features that are proprietary and not part of AOSP. I hope we'll be able to be caught by Linux Mobile or something like this in time.
        jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        Apologies! I originally posted Android 9 Pie (2018), but had doubt & switched to the SDK version. My mistake!! The AI age where the AI needs to be able to peak into all the apps will hopefully create a new API / MCP age, new machine-to-machine work. I'm not sure how much of what Google is doing today is proprietary, adding hooks into all their apps and creating some means for Gemini to access that all, and how much is paved road & available for others. Very curious to know more.
        zozbot234 1y ago
        Right, Android target levels are so different in how they behave towards applications that they're practically best treated as distinct OS's to begin with. There's really no such thing as a unified Android or iOS, unlike Windows or desktop Linux where even a program from the mid-1990s will run unmodified in the latest version of the OS.
        jraph 1y ago
        > Android target levels are so different in how they behave towards applications that they're practically best treated as distinct OS's to begin with You can run applications running different target levels side by side though > desktop Linux where even a program from the mid-1990s will run unmodified in the latest version of the OS mhm... I wish but that's not so true for Linux. Your old program will likely be missing some dynamic library or be incompatible with your current libc. Desktop Linux userspace is awfully unstable, compatibility is broken left and right, basically no one cares except the Linux kernel itself. There's a reason people jokingly say that win32, through wine, is the most stable Linux API. If you still have the source code of your program (and the linux ecosystem is full of free software so that's likely), you can always recompile but you'll probably need to edit the code so it's compatible with the current versions of libraries). I've heard macOS is not great at this neither.
  - thesuperbigfrog 1y ago
    Termux turns my Android phone into a programmable pocket computer. https://termux.dev/en/ https://termux.dev/en/ Please give it a try and if you find it useful, donate.
- jraph 1y ago
  You are talking about the OS while the person you are discussing with is speaking about the kernel. The Linux kernel has its own merits outside standard Linux userspace. I agree, saying that the fact standard Linux distros and Android share the same kernel has no single meaningful implication really undervalues the Linux kernel. I also agree that it's important to keep in mind the two OSes are mostly incompatible. The two OSes sharing the kernel have practical implications, including (theoretically) seeing improvements coming from Android dev in the kernel that can benefit standard linux distros, and things like Termux or Waydroid.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    So when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Would you count WSL?
    - jraph 1y ago
      I'm not sure why you are asking me all this, this is beside my points. > So I reject the link here. > when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Likely not. > Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Why not? Depends what's your concern. > Would you count WSL? Depends what you want to evaluate.
      - fsflover 1y ago
        > Depends what you want to evaluate. This is exactly my question. You said the discussion's about the kernel. Why do you want to evaluate its usage? Which conclusions are you going to draw? Because when talking about the OS, you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software.
        jraph 1y ago
        > Why do you want to evaluate its usage? I never implied this. This subthread is about countering your affirmation that Android being based on the linux kernel has no single meaningful implication. It's not anymore about evaluating usage and counting stuff. This all started with a commenter writing "Android systems don't even run the linux kernel in any real sense", which is wrong, or at least highly misleading and confusing (I do agree with this commenter about the fact that we are talking about forks that don't upstream their shit, which does have severe implications). You could say that Android systems usually don't run mainline Linux kernel. > you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software. I wish :-) And I wouldn't generally include Android in the free software family, few people run Replicant or some Android flavor without the Google services, let alone without proprietary blobs. (I would count blob-free Android)
- vkazanov 1y ago
  In practice Linux is a family of different OSes. Sometimes POSIX-centric, sometimes not. What do you even count as "an OS"? Linux + gnu userland + Gnome? Or is it KDE? Embedded Linux? Does ChromeOS count? LG's WebOS?
  - oblio 1y ago
    Desktop Linux has a clear scope, and we all know. We can act like we don't, but we do. Can I install LibreOffice on Android? Gnome, KDE, Xfce? Which percentage of packages in the Debian repos can I use on Android?
    - vkazanov 1y ago
      Linux is a kernel, that's it. There is an organisation maintaining it, and also the trademark. There is also a major family of OSes building on the kernel + gnu userspace, which you probably call "desktop linux". In my house there are dozens of devices running linux the kernel: routers, a tv set, washing machines, NAS, printers, etc. Some have the full gnu posix-like stack, others are very barebones. Then, there's is a bunch of android devices running the kernel as well. What's wrong with all of these? At what point should i draw a line?
      - palata 1y ago
        To me, Desktop Linux is the Linux I run on my work computer: the one that has a screen, a keyboard and a mouse. It is based on Linux (obviously), the GNU userland to some extent, and then it has a graphical environment (usually based on Xorg or Wayland). This is different from embedded Linux or Linux on a server. And this is different from Linux-the-kernel (which runs on Android).
        vkazanov 1y ago
        Well, you came up with a rather vague definition. Xorg OR wayland. Gtk or qt? Which set of tools do you expect to be available? All of that is just too nebulous. Linux is something that runs the kernel, that's about it. I mean, I've been using linux for all of my life, servers, at home, for work, embedded dev, corporate environment, as a manager and as a dev, etc. What I see is that linux as already everywhere. Desktop space is the only OS market where non-linux OSes are in the majority, and maybe this is why people are so excited about these pointless numbers.

I think this really undervalues what Linux provides. The Android software is Linux software.

fsflover 1y ago

It's completely incompatible, so in practice it's a different OS. Doesn't mean it's not valuable.

hagbard_c 1y ago
Try Termux and you'll be surprised how much 'Linux' software runs fine on Android, this includes things made to run under X11 etc.
- fsflover 1y ago
  https://github.com/termux-play-store/ https://github.com/termux-play-store/
  - jraph 1y ago
    What's your point? This mess is caused by Google policies, not technical considerations. You can still install Termux from F-Droid. We can argue about Android being a horrible OS for all sorts of reasons but that's a separate discussion.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      Touché.
    - jauntywundrkind 1y ago
      > Almost every Android version imposes new major restrictions when it comes to security requirements, and specifically the Android 10 version update was dramatic for Termux usage, as it disallowed executing downloaded files directly. > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ For now it's not a huge barrier to Termux running. We can go run Android 2 stuff today, & maybe Android will forever be backwards compatible. It does mean that Termux can't build a top or use any new Android features. Termux is glued to a truly ancient version of Android, because Android became inhospitable to basic Linux userland use cases. Seems its mostly about being unable to run downloaded code, which feels admittedly like very much "just a technicality", but boy oh boy has that technicality kept Android from expanding outside of its own bespoke userland.
      - jraph 1y ago
        > > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. > Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ Wait, no, Termux is not stuck at Gingerbread, it's stuck at Android 9 (Pie). Agree with the rest though. Android is a sinking ship, not only the Termux issue, but the increasing number of basic apps and features that are proprietary and not part of AOSP. I hope we'll be able to be caught by Linux Mobile or something like this in time.
        jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        Apologies! I originally posted Android 9 Pie (2018), but had doubt & switched to the SDK version. My mistake!! The AI age where the AI needs to be able to peak into all the apps will hopefully create a new API / MCP age, new machine-to-machine work. I'm not sure how much of what Google is doing today is proprietary, adding hooks into all their apps and creating some means for Gemini to access that all, and how much is paved road & available for others. Very curious to know more.
      - zozbot234 1y ago
        Right, Android target levels are so different in how they behave towards applications that they're practically best treated as distinct OS's to begin with. There's really no such thing as a unified Android or iOS, unlike Windows or desktop Linux where even a program from the mid-1990s will run unmodified in the latest version of the OS.
        jraph 1y ago
        > Android target levels are so different in how they behave towards applications that they're practically best treated as distinct OS's to begin with You can run applications running different target levels side by side though > desktop Linux where even a program from the mid-1990s will run unmodified in the latest version of the OS mhm... I wish but that's not so true for Linux. Your old program will likely be missing some dynamic library or be incompatible with your current libc. Desktop Linux userspace is awfully unstable, compatibility is broken left and right, basically no one cares except the Linux kernel itself. There's a reason people jokingly say that win32, through wine, is the most stable Linux API. If you still have the source code of your program (and the linux ecosystem is full of free software so that's likely), you can always recompile but you'll probably need to edit the code so it's compatible with the current versions of libraries). I've heard macOS is not great at this neither.
- thesuperbigfrog 1y ago
  Termux turns my Android phone into a programmable pocket computer. https://termux.dev/en/ https://termux.dev/en/ Please give it a try and if you find it useful, donate.
jraph 1y ago
You are talking about the OS while the person you are discussing with is speaking about the kernel. The Linux kernel has its own merits outside standard Linux userspace. I agree, saying that the fact standard Linux distros and Android share the same kernel has no single meaningful implication really undervalues the Linux kernel. I also agree that it's important to keep in mind the two OSes are mostly incompatible. The two OSes sharing the kernel have practical implications, including (theoretically) seeing improvements coming from Android dev in the kernel that can benefit standard linux distros, and things like Termux or Waydroid.
- fsflover 1y ago
  So when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Would you count WSL?
  - jraph 1y ago
    I'm not sure why you are asking me all this, this is beside my points. > So I reject the link here. > when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Likely not. > Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Why not? Depends what's your concern. > Would you count WSL? Depends what you want to evaluate.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      > Depends what you want to evaluate. This is exactly my question. You said the discussion's about the kernel. Why do you want to evaluate its usage? Which conclusions are you going to draw? Because when talking about the OS, you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software.
      - jraph 1y ago
        > Why do you want to evaluate its usage? I never implied this. This subthread is about countering your affirmation that Android being based on the linux kernel has no single meaningful implication. It's not anymore about evaluating usage and counting stuff. This all started with a commenter writing "Android systems don't even run the linux kernel in any real sense", which is wrong, or at least highly misleading and confusing (I do agree with this commenter about the fact that we are talking about forks that don't upstream their shit, which does have severe implications). You could say that Android systems usually don't run mainline Linux kernel. > you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software. I wish :-) And I wouldn't generally include Android in the free software family, few people run Replicant or some Android flavor without the Google services, let alone without proprietary blobs. (I would count blob-free Android)
vkazanov 1y ago
In practice Linux is a family of different OSes. Sometimes POSIX-centric, sometimes not. What do you even count as "an OS"? Linux + gnu userland + Gnome? Or is it KDE? Embedded Linux? Does ChromeOS count? LG's WebOS?
- oblio 1y ago
  Desktop Linux has a clear scope, and we all know. We can act like we don't, but we do. Can I install LibreOffice on Android? Gnome, KDE, Xfce? Which percentage of packages in the Debian repos can I use on Android?
  - vkazanov 1y ago
    Linux is a kernel, that's it. There is an organisation maintaining it, and also the trademark. There is also a major family of OSes building on the kernel + gnu userspace, which you probably call "desktop linux". In my house there are dozens of devices running linux the kernel: routers, a tv set, washing machines, NAS, printers, etc. Some have the full gnu posix-like stack, others are very barebones. Then, there's is a bunch of android devices running the kernel as well. What's wrong with all of these? At what point should i draw a line?
    - palata 1y ago
      To me, Desktop Linux is the Linux I run on my work computer: the one that has a screen, a keyboard and a mouse. It is based on Linux (obviously), the GNU userland to some extent, and then it has a graphical environment (usually based on Xorg or Wayland). This is different from embedded Linux or Linux on a server. And this is different from Linux-the-kernel (which runs on Android).
      - vkazanov 1y ago
        Well, you came up with a rather vague definition. Xorg OR wayland. Gtk or qt? Which set of tools do you expect to be available? All of that is just too nebulous. Linux is something that runs the kernel, that's about it. I mean, I've been using linux for all of my life, servers, at home, for work, embedded dev, corporate environment, as a manager and as a dev, etc. What I see is that linux as already everywhere. Desktop space is the only OS market where non-linux OSes are in the majority, and maybe this is why people are so excited about these pointless numbers.