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This feels similar to not finding a game fun once I understand the underly system that generates it. The magic is lessened (even if applying simple rules can g

This feels similar to not finding a game fun once I understand the underly system that generates it. The magic is lessened (even if applying simple rules can generate complex outcomes, it feels determined)

parpfish 1y ago
Once you discover any minmaxxing strategy, games change from “explore this world and use your imagination to decide what to do” to “apply this rule or make peace with knowing that you are suboptimal”
- dmonitor 1y ago
  a poorly designed game makes applying the rules boring. a fun game makes applying the rules interesting.
  - anyfoo 1y ago
    Maybe that's why I like Into The Breach so much, and keep coming back to it. It's a turn based strategy game, but one with exceptionally high information, compared to pretty much all the rest. You even fully know your opponent's entire next move! But every turn becomes a tight little puzzle to solve, with surprisingly many possible outcomes. Often, situations that I thought were hopeless, do have a favorable outcome after all, I just had to think further than I usually did.
    - yehoshuapw 1y ago
      I fully agree, and would also recommend baba is you it is very different, but also has the feeling of triumph for each puzzle
- anyfoo 1y ago
  It's often a bit of a choice, though. You definitely can minmax Civilization, Minecraft, or Crusader Kings III. But then you lose out on the creativity and/or role-playing aspect. In Minecraft, I personally want to progress in a "natural" (within the confines of the game) way, and build fun things I like. I don't want to speedrun to a diamond armor or whatever. In Crusader Kings, I actually try to take decisions based on what the character's traits tell me, plus a little bit of own characterization I make up in my head.
TeMPOraL 1y ago
My gripe with all procedural generated content in games, like e.g. Starbound. There's a tiny state space inflated via RNG, and it takes me just moments to map out the underlying canonical states and lack of any correlation between properties of an instance, or between them and the game world. The moment that happens, the game loses most of its fun, as I can't help but perceive the poor base wearing random cosmetics.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  procedural generation can produce infinite variety but it cannot produce infinite novelty.
  - TeMPOraL 1y ago
    Right. However, we don't need infinite variety, or even much variety at all, if that variety makes sense, if it fits the game world and experience in some way. Pure randomness is boring and easy to dismiss wholesale once you realize there's no meaning behind it.

parpfish 1y ago

Once you discover any minmaxxing strategy, games change from “explore this world and use your imagination to decide what to do” to “apply this rule or make peace with knowing that you are suboptimal”

dmonitor 1y ago
a poorly designed game makes applying the rules boring. a fun game makes applying the rules interesting.
- anyfoo 1y ago
  Maybe that's why I like Into The Breach so much, and keep coming back to it. It's a turn based strategy game, but one with exceptionally high information, compared to pretty much all the rest. You even fully know your opponent's entire next move! But every turn becomes a tight little puzzle to solve, with surprisingly many possible outcomes. Often, situations that I thought were hopeless, do have a favorable outcome after all, I just had to think further than I usually did.
  - yehoshuapw 1y ago
    I fully agree, and would also recommend baba is you it is very different, but also has the feeling of triumph for each puzzle
anyfoo 1y ago
It's often a bit of a choice, though. You definitely can minmax Civilization, Minecraft, or Crusader Kings III. But then you lose out on the creativity and/or role-playing aspect. In Minecraft, I personally want to progress in a "natural" (within the confines of the game) way, and build fun things I like. I don't want to speedrun to a diamond armor or whatever. In Crusader Kings, I actually try to take decisions based on what the character's traits tell me, plus a little bit of own characterization I make up in my head.

TeMPOraL 1y ago

My gripe with all procedural generated content in games, like e.g. Starbound. There's a tiny state space inflated via RNG, and it takes me just moments to map out the underlying canonical states and lack of any correlation between properties of an instance, or between them and the game world. The moment that happens, the game loses most of its fun, as I can't help but perceive the poor base wearing random cosmetics.

UltraSane 1y ago
procedural generation can produce infinite variety but it cannot produce infinite novelty.
- TeMPOraL 1y ago
  Right. However, we don't need infinite variety, or even much variety at all, if that variety makes sense, if it fits the game world and experience in some way. Pure randomness is boring and easy to dismiss wholesale once you realize there's no meaning behind it.