6 ms·

What's unethical about selling to DoD?

jMyles 1y ago
Do you really not know? It's a difficult question to answer in an HN thread, because on one hand, it requires a review of the history of empire and war profiteering. But on the other hand, it's just obvious to the point of being difficult to even articulate.
- ghc 1y ago
  Is it unethical for a drywall installer to accept a contract for a building on a military base?
  - int_19h 1y ago
    Depends. Is that military base Gitmo?
  - jMyles 1y ago
    It's not unreasonable to take such a position, yes. Look, if you believe that: a) humanity is headed toward sustained peace b) a transition from the current world order to a peaceful one is better done in an orderly and adult fashion ...then yes, at some point we all need to back away from participation in the legacy systems, right down to the drywall. My observation, especially of the younger generations, is that belief in such a future is more common than it has ever been, and it's certainly one I hold.
    - ghc 1y ago
      Actions within that system may be unethical: certainly nobody is defending what America did to Cambodia, or countless other war crimes. But you're painting participation in the system as unethical. Therefore, Ukrainians defending their homeland are unethical. Let me reframe what you said in terms of christianity: ---- If you believe that: a) Jesus is our savior b) The salvation of humanity depends on accepting (a) ...then yes, at some point everyone needs to back away from other religious systems, right down to atheism. ---- I'm not trying to make light of what you believe, but framing others' participation in a system you don't believe in as unethical is exactly what leads to oppression of religious minorities and other outsider groups. It's a tactic of religion, not reason.
- FredPret 1y ago
  Genuine question, and with due regard to some of the valid concerns you have: what would your opinion on this have been in 1940-1945? What about the Cold War?
- ridiculous_leke 1y ago
  Not invalidating your concerns but don't see a strong reason to not do it considering that every other nation is going to leverage this tech.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- gk1 1y ago
  What you’re describing is the result of the issue being complicated, not obvious.
- kadushka 1y ago
  If you live in US, taxes you pay directly fund DoD. So if you sponsor their activities, why can't Anthropic do business with them? Which other company would you rather get their (your) money?
  - greyface- 1y ago
    Taxes don't directly pay for military spending. If tax revenue, for whatever reason, dropped off a cliff, they'd continue giving money to the DoD, and just increase debt / money printing to cover the difference.
    - kadushka 1y ago
      If there's not enough money from taxes, they will borrow/print more to cover total deficit (not specific to DoD). Otherwise, tax money will go directly to DoD.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    Paying taxes is not voluntary, unlike business deals.
    - kadushka 1y ago
      Living in US is voluntary.
      - int_19h 1y ago
        For large swaths of the population it is not. Moving is expensive, for one. Obtaining a citizenship elsewhere is non-trivial (and often also expensive). There are non-monetary costs as well, like having to leave your friends and extended family behind.
  - jMyles 1y ago
    Yes of course on some level, people who pay taxes to violent imperial actors are doing a disservice to humanity, and are in some sort of moral quandary. We all wish that everyone who has ever lived in such a situation has had the bravery to resist. Right? But I don't think that makes forbearance of such resistance equivalent to taking money from that same actor in exchange for expanding its capability. Those are related but distinct types of transaction.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
henry2023 1y ago
[flagged]
- cpgxiii 1y ago
  Not everyone believes defense contracts are inherently unethical, or at least that they are any more unethical than all of the other consumers GenAI firms are already serving. Given that a (if not the) main business proposition for GenAI is massive reductions in employment costs (which means unemployment and massive economic disruption) this is not a business sector built on any ethical high ground.
int_19h 1y ago
Anthropic specifically are the people who talk about "model alignment" and "harmful outputs" the most, and whose models are by far the most heavily censored. This is all done on the basis that AI has a great potential to do harm. One would think that this kind of outlook should logically lead to keeping this tech away from applications in which it would be literally making life or death decisions (see also: Israel's use of AI to compile target lists and to justify targeting civilian objects).
- leakycap 1y ago
  I hear where you are coming from, but if an AI company is going to be in this field, wouldn't you want it to be the company with as many protections in place as possible to avoid misuse? We aren't going to stop this march forward, no matter how much it is unpopular it will happen. So, which AI company would you prefer be involved with DOD?
  - fuck_AI 1y ago
    "Avoid misuse"? This is the United States Military we're talking about here. They're directly involved in the ongoing genocide in Gaza at this very moment. There is no way to be ethically involved. Their entire existence is "misuse".
    - leakycap 1y ago
      I see from your username that your opinion on this matter was likely extremely set-in-stone before reading my comment, or the article (if you did).
- kadushka 1y ago
  Why do you think humans would make better life or death decisions? Have we never had innocent civilians killed overseas by US military as a result of human error?
  - int_19h 1y ago
    The problem with these things is that they allow humans to pretend that they are not responsible for those decisions, because "computer told me to do so". At the same time, the humans who are training those systems can also pretend to not be responsible because they are just making a thing that provides "suggestions" to humans making the ultimate decision. Again, look at what's happening in Gaza right now for a good example of how this all is different from before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI-assisted_targeting_in_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI-assisted_targeting_in_the_G...
dttze 1y ago
Yeah, I don't get what could be bad about selling to one of the largest exporters of death and misery in the world either.

Do you really not know? It's a difficult question to answer in an HN thread, because on one hand, it requires a review of the history of empire and war profiteering. But on the other hand, it's just obvious to the point of being difficult to even articulate.

ghc 1y ago
Is it unethical for a drywall installer to accept a contract for a building on a military base?
- int_19h 1y ago
  Depends. Is that military base Gitmo?
- jMyles 1y ago
  It's not unreasonable to take such a position, yes. Look, if you believe that: a) humanity is headed toward sustained peace b) a transition from the current world order to a peaceful one is better done in an orderly and adult fashion ...then yes, at some point we all need to back away from participation in the legacy systems, right down to the drywall. My observation, especially of the younger generations, is that belief in such a future is more common than it has ever been, and it's certainly one I hold.
  - ghc 1y ago
    Actions within that system may be unethical: certainly nobody is defending what America did to Cambodia, or countless other war crimes. But you're painting participation in the system as unethical. Therefore, Ukrainians defending their homeland are unethical. Let me reframe what you said in terms of christianity: ---- If you believe that: a) Jesus is our savior b) The salvation of humanity depends on accepting (a) ...then yes, at some point everyone needs to back away from other religious systems, right down to atheism. ---- I'm not trying to make light of what you believe, but framing others' participation in a system you don't believe in as unethical is exactly what leads to oppression of religious minorities and other outsider groups. It's a tactic of religion, not reason.
FredPret 1y ago
Genuine question, and with due regard to some of the valid concerns you have: what would your opinion on this have been in 1940-1945? What about the Cold War?
ridiculous_leke 1y ago
Not invalidating your concerns but don't see a strong reason to not do it considering that every other nation is going to leverage this tech.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
gk1 1y ago
What you’re describing is the result of the issue being complicated, not obvious.
kadushka 1y ago
If you live in US, taxes you pay directly fund DoD. So if you sponsor their activities, why can't Anthropic do business with them? Which other company would you rather get their (your) money?
- greyface- 1y ago
  Taxes don't directly pay for military spending. If tax revenue, for whatever reason, dropped off a cliff, they'd continue giving money to the DoD, and just increase debt / money printing to cover the difference.
  - kadushka 1y ago
    If there's not enough money from taxes, they will borrow/print more to cover total deficit (not specific to DoD). Otherwise, tax money will go directly to DoD.
- int_19h 1y ago
  Paying taxes is not voluntary, unlike business deals.
  - kadushka 1y ago
    Living in US is voluntary.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      For large swaths of the population it is not. Moving is expensive, for one. Obtaining a citizenship elsewhere is non-trivial (and often also expensive). There are non-monetary costs as well, like having to leave your friends and extended family behind.
- jMyles 1y ago
  Yes of course on some level, people who pay taxes to violent imperial actors are doing a disservice to humanity, and are in some sort of moral quandary. We all wish that everyone who has ever lived in such a situation has had the bravery to resist. Right? But I don't think that makes forbearance of such resistance equivalent to taking money from that same actor in exchange for expanding its capability. Those are related but distinct types of transaction.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

henry2023 1y ago

[flagged]

cpgxiii 1y ago
Not everyone believes defense contracts are inherently unethical, or at least that they are any more unethical than all of the other consumers GenAI firms are already serving. Given that a (if not the) main business proposition for GenAI is massive reductions in employment costs (which means unemployment and massive economic disruption) this is not a business sector built on any ethical high ground.

int_19h 1y ago

Anthropic specifically are the people who talk about "model alignment" and "harmful outputs" the most, and whose models are by far the most heavily censored. This is all done on the basis that AI has a great potential to do harm. One would think that this kind of outlook should logically lead to keeping this tech away from applications in which it would be literally making life or death decisions (see also: Israel's use of AI to compile target lists and to justify targeting civilian objects).

leakycap 1y ago
I hear where you are coming from, but if an AI company is going to be in this field, wouldn't you want it to be the company with as many protections in place as possible to avoid misuse? We aren't going to stop this march forward, no matter how much it is unpopular it will happen. So, which AI company would you prefer be involved with DOD?
- fuck_AI 1y ago
  "Avoid misuse"? This is the United States Military we're talking about here. They're directly involved in the ongoing genocide in Gaza at this very moment. There is no way to be ethically involved. Their entire existence is "misuse".
  - leakycap 1y ago
    I see from your username that your opinion on this matter was likely extremely set-in-stone before reading my comment, or the article (if you did).
kadushka 1y ago
Why do you think humans would make better life or death decisions? Have we never had innocent civilians killed overseas by US military as a result of human error?
- int_19h 1y ago
  The problem with these things is that they allow humans to pretend that they are not responsible for those decisions, because "computer told me to do so". At the same time, the humans who are training those systems can also pretend to not be responsible because they are just making a thing that provides "suggestions" to humans making the ultimate decision. Again, look at what's happening in Gaza right now for a good example of how this all is different from before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI-assisted_targeting_in_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI-assisted_targeting_in_the_G...

dttze 1y ago

Yeah, I don't get what could be bad about selling to one of the largest exporters of death and misery in the world either.