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As terrible as the current US policy system is, a really good sanity check for any policies like this is "would you be able do this in Japan": If you drove a c

As terrible as the current US policy system is, a really good sanity check for any policies like this is "would you be able do this in Japan": If you drove a car drunk and it turned into a police chase, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? If you snuck across the Japanese border with intention to live there undocumented, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? If you posted social media saying you wanted to overthrow the Japanese government, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? Literally anything involving a gun and a crime, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? If the answer is "no", you're probably feeding too heavily from ideology. The reality is that most countries, including far more stable and peaceful countries than the US will ever be, are far less tolerant of crossing borders illegally, drunk driving, gun offenses, etc. With their own citizens, to say nothing of foreigners on visas.

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shadowgovt 1y ago
Why? The United States is not Japan. The United States has built its national identity on exceptionalism; regression-to-the-mean reasoning is flawed in that context. When the United States was founded, the average nation was some flavor of monarchy.
- esseph 1y ago
  Sounds like we're regressing-to-the-mean, then.
  - shadowgovt 1y ago
    There are certainly quite a few people trying to make that happen. They are opposed by, well, Americans.
MinimalAction 1y ago
There have been cases of speed-tickets turned into deportation notices for international students. Would Japan do that too for a speed limit violation?
- throwaway323929 1y ago
  Great question: Going over 30KM/h over the speed limit in a non-highway zone (red ticket) in Japan is a criminal offense: it goes to court, there is a criminal record filed, they can suspend or revoke your driver’s license, and it can absolutely cause a VISA to be revoked or not renewed. And unlike in the US they actually do enforce the laws there.
tsimionescu 1y ago
I would bet you anything you want that posting that you don't like the Israeli government's genocide in Gaza (a major topic for this type of scrutiny) will get you neither deported nor even turned back at the border in Japan.
- foxglacier 1y ago
  It probably won't in America either though. You're making up a strawman.
  - dttze 1y ago
    Yes it will, they are already trying it like with Rumeysa Ozturk.
    - foxglacier 1y ago
      Yet still didn't.
nemomarx 1y ago
Isn't Japan somewhat famously hard to immigrate too? This kinda smuggles in the premise that their state of affairs is desirable and normal.
- somanyphotons 1y ago
  Sure, replace Japan with New Zealand then
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Or Switzerland.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >Isn't Japan somewhat famously hard to immigrate too? Isn't Japan famously safe and clean?
  - thunderfork 1y ago
    [dead]
  - hoegarden 1y ago
    Yes and it will just need a light dusting in a few decades and then a new people will be able to move in.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Is living in fear of crime from unrestricted illegal immigration a better fate? Like sure, your daughter was raped by some illegal third worlder and your city and public places are now unsafe and dirty, your society has low trust and no more social cohesion, but at least your ruling business elite have access to unlimited cheap labor in indentured servitude to keep the line going up. Heaven. Man, Japan is really missing out here. They should listen to the wealthy western champagne liberals on HN who are outspokenly pro mass migration and yet spend most of their income to live in homes as far as possible from cities impacted by mass immigration, usually in majority-white suburbs with good safe schools and manicured lawns. Edit: answering here to your comment below. Which statistics are you referring to? And why is resorting to the Hitler card on people who disagree with you your only argument? Let's address your vile accusations with facts from experts: "Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam -- famous for "Bowling Alone," his 2000 book on declining civic engagement -- has found that the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings. The study, the largest ever on civic engagement in America, found that virtually all measures of civic health are lower in more diverse settings."[1] [1] https://archive.is/IrbAC#selection-445.127-445.686 https://archive.is/IrbAC#selection-445.127-445.686
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barbazoo 1y ago
> If you posted social media saying you wanted to overthrow the Japanese government, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? You're cherry picking and assuming they only look for obvious criminal offences like "government overthrow" and not dissenting views, criticism of the people in power, views against the economic order, etc. For some of those I can imagine the answer being "no" in Japan and "Yes" in the US.
- mvieira38 1y ago
  Look at the guy's profile, they might actually be on a marketing team for Trump. Literally everything is talking points and tailor-made to shift perception.
  - throwaway323929 1y ago
    I voted for Harris, she was a far more competent candidate. Not everybody that thinks crime should be illegal and that you shouldn't be able to just walk randomly across country borders to live in another country without their knowledge is a Trump voter. It's actually a pretty normal stance that most people take in most countries, including most left leaning people in the US.
sailfast 1y ago
Why would I desire a regression to the mean as a citizen? Freedom of expression is critical, and there is no guidance at ALL about what constitutes offending speech vs. what does not. Arbitrary denial of entry is not something that should be celebrated.
grafmax 1y ago
> If you posted social media saying you wanted to overthrow the Japanese government, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? This administration already considers protesting genocide a “threat to national security”. It has a well documented history of retaliating against protected speech. This latest policy is authoritarian retaliation against of free speech, plain and simple. Comparing the policy of a liberal democracy like Japan to contemporary US authoritarianism is truly disingenuous.
mvieira38 1y ago
Wow this shows some really nice propagandist accumen, I wonder if it's literally a paid employee or something, judging by the comment history. You first rope in drunk drivers and illegal immigrants with the point being discussed (legal students) and then you exaggerate, saying people might be threatening domestic terrorism on social media. How cool! You fail to address, though, that 1- the US is requiring social media accounts to be set to public, forcing people's hand into being labled as aggitators. 2- stuff that might be of academic interest is notoriously targeted by this admin, like any research being done on Israel/Palestine, any research being done on ESG, not to mention the more overt leftist themes (pro-LGBT, abortion, etc academics). This change is an easy way for the admin to target this type of research
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway323929 1y ago
  This is the second time in this thread you have accused me of being a paid Trump employee for having a different opinion than you.
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Atreiden 1y ago
None of these things apply to the average exchange student coming to the country legally to study at our universities.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
Those are the wrong questions. The US was built on immigration; Japan never was -- it has always been anti-immigration. There's no Statue of Liberty with "give me your huddled masses" inscription. These harsh actions go against the principles on which the US was founded and built. Similar actions in Japan do not go against the principles on which Japan was founded. A separate conversation, but immigration -- legal or illegal -- greatly benefits the US economically. While conversely, Japan's immigration policies are greatly hurting its economy as its population declines. I'm not pro- illegal immigration. I'm for making legal immigration much more accessible so that you don't end up with millions of illegal immigrants.

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shadowgovt 1y ago

Why? The United States is not Japan. The United States has built its national identity on exceptionalism; regression-to-the-mean reasoning is flawed in that context. When the United States was founded, the average nation was some flavor of monarchy.

esseph 1y ago
Sounds like we're regressing-to-the-mean, then.
- shadowgovt 1y ago
  There are certainly quite a few people trying to make that happen. They are opposed by, well, Americans.

MinimalAction 1y ago

There have been cases of speed-tickets turned into deportation notices for international students. Would Japan do that too for a speed limit violation?

throwaway323929 1y ago
Great question: Going over 30KM/h over the speed limit in a non-highway zone (red ticket) in Japan is a criminal offense: it goes to court, there is a criminal record filed, they can suspend or revoke your driver’s license, and it can absolutely cause a VISA to be revoked or not renewed. And unlike in the US they actually do enforce the laws there.

tsimionescu 1y ago

I would bet you anything you want that posting that you don't like the Israeli government's genocide in Gaza (a major topic for this type of scrutiny) will get you neither deported nor even turned back at the border in Japan.

foxglacier 1y ago
It probably won't in America either though. You're making up a strawman.
- dttze 1y ago
  Yes it will, they are already trying it like with Rumeysa Ozturk.
  - foxglacier 1y ago
    Yet still didn't.

nemomarx 1y ago

Isn't Japan somewhat famously hard to immigrate too? This kinda smuggles in the premise that their state of affairs is desirable and normal.

somanyphotons 1y ago
Sure, replace Japan with New Zealand then
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  Or Switzerland.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>Isn't Japan somewhat famously hard to immigrate too? Isn't Japan famously safe and clean?
- thunderfork 1y ago
  [dead]
- hoegarden 1y ago
  Yes and it will just need a light dusting in a few decades and then a new people will be able to move in.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Is living in fear of crime from unrestricted illegal immigration a better fate? Like sure, your daughter was raped by some illegal third worlder and your city and public places are now unsafe and dirty, your society has low trust and no more social cohesion, but at least your ruling business elite have access to unlimited cheap labor in indentured servitude to keep the line going up. Heaven. Man, Japan is really missing out here. They should listen to the wealthy western champagne liberals on HN who are outspokenly pro mass migration and yet spend most of their income to live in homes as far as possible from cities impacted by mass immigration, usually in majority-white suburbs with good safe schools and manicured lawns. Edit: answering here to your comment below. Which statistics are you referring to? And why is resorting to the Hitler card on people who disagree with you your only argument? Let's address your vile accusations with facts from experts: "Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam -- famous for "Bowling Alone," his 2000 book on declining civic engagement -- has found that the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings. The study, the largest ever on civic engagement in America, found that virtually all measures of civic health are lower in more diverse settings."[1] [1] https://archive.is/IrbAC#selection-445.127-445.686 https://archive.is/IrbAC#selection-445.127-445.686

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[deleted]

barbazoo 1y ago

> If you posted social media saying you wanted to overthrow the Japanese government, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? You're cherry picking and assuming they only look for obvious criminal offences like "government overthrow" and not dissenting views, criticism of the people in power, views against the economic order, etc. For some of those I can imagine the answer being "no" in Japan and "Yes" in the US.

mvieira38 1y ago
Look at the guy's profile, they might actually be on a marketing team for Trump. Literally everything is talking points and tailor-made to shift perception.
- throwaway323929 1y ago
  I voted for Harris, she was a far more competent candidate. Not everybody that thinks crime should be illegal and that you shouldn't be able to just walk randomly across country borders to live in another country without their knowledge is a Trump voter. It's actually a pretty normal stance that most people take in most countries, including most left leaning people in the US.

sailfast 1y ago

Why would I desire a regression to the mean as a citizen? Freedom of expression is critical, and there is no guidance at ALL about what constitutes offending speech vs. what does not. Arbitrary denial of entry is not something that should be celebrated.

grafmax 1y ago

> If you posted social media saying you wanted to overthrow the Japanese government, would Japan be okay with it or would they put you in jail and/or deport you? This administration already considers protesting genocide a “threat to national security”. It has a well documented history of retaliating against protected speech. This latest policy is authoritarian retaliation against of free speech, plain and simple. Comparing the policy of a liberal democracy like Japan to contemporary US authoritarianism is truly disingenuous.

mvieira38 1y ago

Wow this shows some really nice propagandist accumen, I wonder if it's literally a paid employee or something, judging by the comment history. You first rope in drunk drivers and illegal immigrants with the point being discussed (legal students) and then you exaggerate, saying people might be threatening domestic terrorism on social media. How cool! You fail to address, though, that 1- the US is requiring social media accounts to be set to public, forcing people's hand into being labled as aggitators. 2- stuff that might be of academic interest is notoriously targeted by this admin, like any research being done on Israel/Palestine, any research being done on ESG, not to mention the more overt leftist themes (pro-LGBT, abortion, etc academics). This change is an easy way for the admin to target this type of research

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
throwaway323929 1y ago
This is the second time in this thread you have accused me of being a paid Trump employee for having a different opinion than you.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

Atreiden 1y ago

None of these things apply to the average exchange student coming to the country legally to study at our universities.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

Those are the wrong questions. The US was built on immigration; Japan never was -- it has always been anti-immigration. There's no Statue of Liberty with "give me your huddled masses" inscription. These harsh actions go against the principles on which the US was founded and built. Similar actions in Japan do not go against the principles on which Japan was founded. A separate conversation, but immigration -- legal or illegal -- greatly benefits the US economically. While conversely, Japan's immigration policies are greatly hurting its economy as its population declines. I'm not pro- illegal immigration. I'm for making legal immigration much more accessible so that you don't end up with millions of illegal immigrants.