10 ms·

White Noise – secure and private messenger

116 points by onhacker 1y ago

ktallett 1y ago
As much as I love the idea of these secure messaging apps, until I see how a company responds to government intimidation I am always wary of being too invested and trustworthy of the marketing.
- sak5sk 1y ago
  There is no company. It's open source software and data is stored on relays.
- abhsag 1y ago
  Yep, this is what makes THIS app special, it's a protocol not a company
patchtopic 1y ago
interesting but still very alpha. It doesn't have any desktop/PC clients yet, but I assume it will?
- hackernudes 1y ago
  Looks like a flutter app that can build for desktop Linux https://github.com/parres-hq/whitenoise_flutter https://github.com/parres-hq/whitenoise_flutter . I started my reply thinking it was still using Tauru but apparently things change fast!
SeriousM 1y ago
Austria's goverment agreed on spying messengers for the public safety. How does white noise protects itself from getting legally hacked?
- shark_laser 1y ago
  White Noise is open source, and built on Nostr, a decentralised and open protocol. Run your own fork if you don't trust this one.
hiimkeks 1y ago
Congratulations on the release! As someone who used to be in the Secure Scuttlebutt community an now works on OpenMLS, I wonder how they (you?) deal with concurrency of Commit messages. I spent quite some time thinking about ways to detect and resolve forks, and the current iteration of MLS doesn't really have good answers here.
- miloignis 1y ago
  I looked up the spec, and it seems like they just tiebreak on time and hash and throw away the losing commit: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/001c516f7294308143515a494a35213fc45978df/EE.md#commit-message-race-conditions https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/001c516f72943081...
  - hiimkeks 1y ago
    Huh, that would make it easy to provoke forks by just backdating a second commit.
heavyset_go 1y ago
> White Noise stands out by merging Nostr’s decentralized network with advanced encryption. How does White Noise address criticisms surrounding Nostr's implementation[1]: > While nostr offers the ability to send encrypted DMs to user pubkeys, the metadata of these messages are broadcast publicly via relays. This is the same as a bitcoin transaction being viewable on the public ledger. The contents of the direct message will be encrypted, but other metadata like the sender and recipient can be viewed by anyone. Even assuming if metadata is encrypted, does WN's implementation broadcast messages across public relays? If you can map out social networks based on publicly available data, can tell if one user messages another, or correlate when messages were sent to/from whom, I would not call that private. [1] https://ron.stoner.com/nostr_Security_and_Privacy/ https://ron.stoner.com/nostr_Security_and_Privacy/
- EGreg 1y ago
  So you wouldn't call Signal private, right? Just wanted consistency.
  - collinmcnulty 1y ago
    Signal has sealed sender. So you can tell that a phone number is a signal user but not who they message.
    - rendaw 1y ago
      How does sealed sender work? I couldn't find details. The explanations I saw seemed to start from the assumption that Signal doesn't keep logs of messages moving through their system.
      - ikawe 1y ago
        https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ The short version is: Traditionally, Bob needed to “log in” to be able to send a message to Alice’s inbox. With Sealed Sender, Alice gives Bob a credential that allows him to message her from now on without logging in. Only Alice can tell that the message she received is from Bob. There’s some subtlety around bootstrapping these credentials and preventing abuse which means that not every message can be sent as Sealed Sender, but the vast majority are. Read the blog post for the authoritative explanation. There’s an option in the app settings to make visible which of your messages were sent without identifying your client to the server if you’re curious.
globalnode 1y ago
i admit i havent looked at the app, but i assume is centrally run. firstly: i think the only way secure p2p messaging can work is if its decentralised. no 3rd parties to communication, how this would be done i have no idea. maybe like email but without the server? secondly: you'd need to ensure a secure os on each end that you can trust to not take screenshots and send to hq before transmission or after reception. since its not possible to use the internet without a source ip. its almost provably insecure (in terms of privacy), no matter what protocols are dreamed up. a 3rd party will have to be trusted to distribute packets. and thats the weak point. (unless you force the source IP to be 0.0.0.0 or something before it goes out) couldnt we just use dns to point to recipients, force zero the source ip and send udp packets directly? what about pgp through a tor relay?
- botanical76 1y ago
  As I understand it, it's just a nostr client, so it uses nostr's decentralized network of relays.
- shark_laser 1y ago
  This is decentralised as it runs on Nostr. Nostr can run over TOR.
- abhsag 1y ago
  It's not centrally run, that's the whole point.
- averageRoyalty 1y ago
  > i admit i havent looked at the app, but i assume is centrally run. I don't mean to be rude, but why comment then? Your core premise was incorrect, which could have been resolved within 5 seconds of reading the headings on the page linked.
esafak 1y ago
Apparently it uses a new protocol called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messaging_Layer_Security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messaging_Layer_Security
skeptrune 1y ago
Wow, Nostr is back in vogue on the all time highs?
journal 1y ago
title: secure and private terms: we're not responsible
- gblargg 1y ago
  Software advertising itself as "A truly secure and private messenger" raises my skepticism. It might be truly secure. Its creators might believe it is and have zero doubt that they've made no errors and there are no flaws. Or it is neither and they want me to think it's those things. The only thing definite is that it claims to be truly secure.
  - sak5sk 1y ago
    It's open source, others can audit it if you can't.
  - abhsag 1y ago
    Don't trust, verify ;)
STELLANOVA 1y ago
How is this better than Session and how it compares? https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.04609 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.04609
sak5sk 1y ago
Looks super interesting. I am waiting for the App Store release since TestFlight is full. I like the idea of not requiring a phone number - the only thing makes Signal lose some points in my eyes... well, I guess if the company goes down that might be another reason for open protocols over apps.
wrftaylor 1y ago
Heads up that you have a typo - "Unscensorable"
untitled2 1y ago
Oh, look, another one!
high_priest 1y ago
The file/image storage concept using whats called "Blossom server" needs to be explained publicly somewhere. I don't know anything about this concept of "storing private files on public servers" and it immediately screems at me as unsafe. I've only been able to find this coverage on the Blossom thing: https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/blossom-intro/ https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/blossom-intro/

116 points by onhacker 1y ago

As much as I love the idea of these secure messaging apps, until I see how a company responds to government intimidation I am always wary of being too invested and trustworthy of the marketing.

sak5sk 1y ago
There is no company. It's open source software and data is stored on relays.
abhsag 1y ago
Yep, this is what makes THIS app special, it's a protocol not a company

patchtopic 1y ago

interesting but still very alpha. It doesn't have any desktop/PC clients yet, but I assume it will?

hackernudes 1y ago
Looks like a flutter app that can build for desktop Linux https://github.com/parres-hq/whitenoise_flutter https://github.com/parres-hq/whitenoise_flutter . I started my reply thinking it was still using Tauru but apparently things change fast!

SeriousM 1y ago

Austria's goverment agreed on spying messengers for the public safety. How does white noise protects itself from getting legally hacked?

shark_laser 1y ago
White Noise is open source, and built on Nostr, a decentralised and open protocol. Run your own fork if you don't trust this one.

hiimkeks 1y ago

Congratulations on the release! As someone who used to be in the Secure Scuttlebutt community an now works on OpenMLS, I wonder how they (you?) deal with concurrency of Commit messages. I spent quite some time thinking about ways to detect and resolve forks, and the current iteration of MLS doesn't really have good answers here.

miloignis 1y ago
I looked up the spec, and it seems like they just tiebreak on time and hash and throw away the losing commit: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/001c516f7294308143515a494a35213fc45978df/EE.md#commit-message-race-conditions https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/001c516f72943081...
- hiimkeks 1y ago
  Huh, that would make it easy to provoke forks by just backdating a second commit.

heavyset_go 1y ago

> White Noise stands out by merging Nostr’s decentralized network with advanced encryption. How does White Noise address criticisms surrounding Nostr's implementation[1]: > While nostr offers the ability to send encrypted DMs to user pubkeys, the metadata of these messages are broadcast publicly via relays. This is the same as a bitcoin transaction being viewable on the public ledger. The contents of the direct message will be encrypted, but other metadata like the sender and recipient can be viewed by anyone. Even assuming if metadata is encrypted, does WN's implementation broadcast messages across public relays? If you can map out social networks based on publicly available data, can tell if one user messages another, or correlate when messages were sent to/from whom, I would not call that private. [1] https://ron.stoner.com/nostr_Security_and_Privacy/ https://ron.stoner.com/nostr_Security_and_Privacy/

EGreg 1y ago
So you wouldn't call Signal private, right? Just wanted consistency.
- collinmcnulty 1y ago
  Signal has sealed sender. So you can tell that a phone number is a signal user but not who they message.
  - rendaw 1y ago
    How does sealed sender work? I couldn't find details. The explanations I saw seemed to start from the assumption that Signal doesn't keep logs of messages moving through their system.
    - ikawe 1y ago
      https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ The short version is: Traditionally, Bob needed to “log in” to be able to send a message to Alice’s inbox. With Sealed Sender, Alice gives Bob a credential that allows him to message her from now on without logging in. Only Alice can tell that the message she received is from Bob. There’s some subtlety around bootstrapping these credentials and preventing abuse which means that not every message can be sent as Sealed Sender, but the vast majority are. Read the blog post for the authoritative explanation. There’s an option in the app settings to make visible which of your messages were sent without identifying your client to the server if you’re curious.

globalnode 1y ago

i admit i havent looked at the app, but i assume is centrally run. firstly: i think the only way secure p2p messaging can work is if its decentralised. no 3rd parties to communication, how this would be done i have no idea. maybe like email but without the server? secondly: you'd need to ensure a secure os on each end that you can trust to not take screenshots and send to hq before transmission or after reception. since its not possible to use the internet without a source ip. its almost provably insecure (in terms of privacy), no matter what protocols are dreamed up. a 3rd party will have to be trusted to distribute packets. and thats the weak point. (unless you force the source IP to be 0.0.0.0 or something before it goes out) couldnt we just use dns to point to recipients, force zero the source ip and send udp packets directly? what about pgp through a tor relay?

botanical76 1y ago
As I understand it, it's just a nostr client, so it uses nostr's decentralized network of relays.
shark_laser 1y ago
This is decentralised as it runs on Nostr. Nostr can run over TOR.
abhsag 1y ago
It's not centrally run, that's the whole point.
averageRoyalty 1y ago
> i admit i havent looked at the app, but i assume is centrally run. I don't mean to be rude, but why comment then? Your core premise was incorrect, which could have been resolved within 5 seconds of reading the headings on the page linked.

esafak 1y ago

Apparently it uses a new protocol called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messaging_Layer_Security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messaging_Layer_Security

skeptrune 1y ago

Wow, Nostr is back in vogue on the all time highs?

journal 1y ago

title: secure and private terms: we're not responsible

gblargg 1y ago
Software advertising itself as "A truly secure and private messenger" raises my skepticism. It might be truly secure. Its creators might believe it is and have zero doubt that they've made no errors and there are no flaws. Or it is neither and they want me to think it's those things. The only thing definite is that it claims to be truly secure.
- sak5sk 1y ago
  It's open source, others can audit it if you can't.
- abhsag 1y ago
  Don't trust, verify ;)

STELLANOVA 1y ago

How is this better than Session and how it compares? https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.04609 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.04609

sak5sk 1y ago

Looks super interesting. I am waiting for the App Store release since TestFlight is full. I like the idea of not requiring a phone number - the only thing makes Signal lose some points in my eyes... well, I guess if the company goes down that might be another reason for open protocols over apps.

wrftaylor 1y ago

Heads up that you have a typo - "Unscensorable"

untitled2 1y ago

Oh, look, another one!

high_priest 1y ago

The file/image storage concept using whats called "Blossom server" needs to be explained publicly somewhere. I don't know anything about this concept of "storing private files on public servers" and it immediately screems at me as unsafe. I've only been able to find this coverage on the Blossom thing: https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/blossom-intro/ https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/blossom-intro/