5 ms·

Because, firstly, this is a university, not some rando self-hosting, and secondly, you can't generate randomness from any classical computer, only pseudorandomn

by svota 1y ago

Because, firstly, this is a university, not some rando self-hosting, and secondly, you can't generate randomness from any classical computer, only pseudorandomness [0]. This means that a dedicated adversary can potentially work out what the outcome will be. For something like the use cases they mention - jury selection, lottery, etc. - you want actual randomness. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandomness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandomness

throw0101d 1y ago
> […] you can't generate randomness from any classical computer, only pseudorandomness [0]. Back in 1999 Intel used amplified thermal noise from analog circuits on their chips to generate randomness: * PDF: https://web.archive.org/web/20100714102630/https://www.cryptography.com/public/pdf/IntelRNG.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20100714102630/https://www.crypt... This was further refined and in 2011 they published how RdRand (formerly "Bull Mountain") works: * https://spectrum.ieee.org/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator https://spectrum.ieee.org/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-gen... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDRAND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDRAND * PDF: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/develop/external/us/en/documents/441-intel-r-drng-software-implementation-guide-final-aug7.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/develop/external/us/en/doc... So classical computers can generate randomness if you have the right circuits for it.
- treyd 1y ago
  > So classical computers can generate randomness if you have the right circuits for it. That is by definition not a classical computer. It's not a quantum computer, but it's probabilistic in a limited sense.
  - dekhn 1y ago
    I don't think anybody wrote a description of a classical computer that excludes components that generate harvestable random noise. Effectively all computers are probabilistic, it's just that the probabilities for instructions, memory fetches, bus transfers, etc, have such low error probabilities that you will likely go years without directly observing one.
    - treyd 1y ago
      A classical computer is a pure mathematical object. No real-world computer completely embodies the concept, but they vary in how much they try to hide it. Rdrand is an admission that no they're really not classical computers, and it turns out that that is useful in certain scenarios.
      - dekhn 1y ago
        oh you're talking about deterministic turing machines (have not heard that referred to as "classical" computer before- typically when people say that, they mean an actual physical real-world computer, not a theoretical model.
- sidewndr46 1y ago
  I think you could just create something like this and sample it with the sound card as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chua%27s_circuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chua%27s_circuit
dekhn 1y ago
A zener diode- standard component- produces random noise. It needs to be mildly conditioned to be unbiased.

by svota 1y ago

throw0101d 1y ago

> […] you can't generate randomness from any classical computer, only pseudorandomness [0]. Back in 1999 Intel used amplified thermal noise from analog circuits on their chips to generate randomness: * PDF: https://web.archive.org/web/20100714102630/https://www.cryptography.com/public/pdf/IntelRNG.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20100714102630/https://www.crypt... This was further refined and in 2011 they published how RdRand (formerly "Bull Mountain") works: * https://spectrum.ieee.org/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator https://spectrum.ieee.org/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-gen... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDRAND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDRAND * PDF: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/develop/external/us/en/documents/441-intel-r-drng-software-implementation-guide-final-aug7.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/develop/external/us/en/doc... So classical computers can generate randomness if you have the right circuits for it.

treyd 1y ago
> So classical computers can generate randomness if you have the right circuits for it. That is by definition not a classical computer. It's not a quantum computer, but it's probabilistic in a limited sense.
- dekhn 1y ago
  I don't think anybody wrote a description of a classical computer that excludes components that generate harvestable random noise. Effectively all computers are probabilistic, it's just that the probabilities for instructions, memory fetches, bus transfers, etc, have such low error probabilities that you will likely go years without directly observing one.
  - treyd 1y ago
    A classical computer is a pure mathematical object. No real-world computer completely embodies the concept, but they vary in how much they try to hide it. Rdrand is an admission that no they're really not classical computers, and it turns out that that is useful in certain scenarios.
    - dekhn 1y ago
      oh you're talking about deterministic turing machines (have not heard that referred to as "classical" computer before- typically when people say that, they mean an actual physical real-world computer, not a theoretical model.
sidewndr46 1y ago
I think you could just create something like this and sample it with the sound card as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chua%27s_circuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chua%27s_circuit

dekhn 1y ago

A zener diode- standard component- produces random noise. It needs to be mildly conditioned to be unbiased.