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The data on this is very clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_

by rank0 1y ago

The data on this is very clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c.... > According to the OECD, 'household disposable income is income available to households such as wages and salaries, income from self-employment and unincorporated enterprises, income from pensions and other social benefits, and income from financial investments (less any payments of tax, social insurance contributions and interest on financial liabilities). 'Gross' means that depreciation costs are not subtracted.'[1] This indicator also takes account of social transfers in kind 'such as health or education provided for free or at reduced prices by governments and not-for-profit organisations.' United States: 62,300 France: 45,548 Americans need to be more grateful for what they have.

saubeidl 1y ago
Disposable income is a poor metric to use though. Money isn't everything. The french have better public transport, more social stability, a life expectancy that's higher by five (!) years etc etc. By pretty much whatever standard you use, their quality of life is much higher.
- maeln 1y ago
  From my anecdotal evidence (so it proves nothing), it seems like being poor / middle class in France is better than in the U.S. But being high-middle class / rich / in the owner class, is better in the U.S, since you already don't need the socialized healthcare, you actively seek segregated places to live, you do not take the public transport (or at least that often), etc, but you do get to enjoy all the amenities for rich people that the U.S offer, which is way more than France since it has a higher volume of rich people.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >my net worth is easily in the seven figures. I ended up moving away for the above reasons. Easy to high road others now, AFTER you made 7 figures in the country you now publicly despise, and wouldn't be able to where you're originally from. Why try to emotionally pull the ladder?
    - zorobo 1y ago
      I assume you are not living in Paris then. Here in Paris: - housing is expensive - it's not cardboard boxes, it's tents - you'd be mugged/knifed rather than shot, agreed - public transportation is good when not on strike. However, it's dirty and you might get robbed - the world's most creative government when it comes to taxes - it's still beautiful though…
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        I don't live in Paris. Generally, I don't love cities >2M inhabitants. The parts of Paris I went to recently were quite nice, but of course, a tourists view is different from a locals. I'd be surprised if it was anywhere near as bad as, say the SF tenderloin though.
    - tomhow 1y ago
      Please don't stir up nationalistic flamewar like this on HN.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        The sentiment expressed is explicitly anti-nationalist.
        tomhow 1y ago
        Yes, right, and our position is the same, whichever the direction of the attack.
- rank0 1y ago
  Look, I am not saying life is inherently better in America vs France. This thread started as a debate about wages and social benefits. If you're truly interested in a good faith discussion on that topic, the metrics I'm highlighting are essential. If you've already cemented your opinion and just have a bone to pick with the United States there's probably not much common ground we can find. > Disposable income is a poor metric to use though. Hard Disagree. It's directly related to standard of living. You're also leaving out the other parts. It's adjusted for PPP, taxes, essential household costs (healthcare, shelter, etc), and social benefits. > Money isn't everything. The french have better public transport, more social stability, a life expectancy that's higher by five (!) years etc etc. Of course money isn't everything...but again we started off by talking about it. > By pretty much whatever standard you use, their quality of life is much higher. Except for household income, wealth, affordability, and others. See for yourself! This is an excellent resource: https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?lc=en&tm=NAAG&pg=0&snb=12&vw=tb&df[ds]=dsDisseminateFinalDMZ&df[id]=DSD_NAAG%40DF_NAAG_V&df[ag]=OECD.SDD.NAD&df[vs]=1.0&dq=A.AUS%2BAUT%2BBEL%2BCAN%2BCHL%2BCOL%2BCRI%2BCZE%2BDNK%2BEST%2BFIN%2BFRA%2BDEU%2BGRC%2BHUN%2BISL%2BIRL%2BISR%2BITA%2BJPN%2BKOR%2BLVA%2BLTU%2BLUX%2BMEX%2BNLD%2BNZL%2BNOR%2BPOL%2BPRT%2BSVK%2BSVN%2BESP%2BSWE%2BCHE%2BTUR%2BGBR%2BUSA.LES1M_BF90_POP%2BLES1M_NN_POP%2BLES1M_FAS_POP%2BB7GS1M_POP.USD_PPP_PS.&pd=2000%2C&to[TIME_PERIOD]=false&ly[cl]=TIME_PERIOD&ly[rw]=REF_AREA https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?lc=en&tm=NAAG&pg=0&snb=12... As another random (non-definitive) data point take the homelessness rate: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/homelessness-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/homelessn... I stand by my statement. Too many Americans don't appreciate how good they have it. Cultural differences are real.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    I think if you're a person that is primarily focused on economic indicators, I can see your point. Because you mentioned it, I do think a lot of this comes down to cultural differences. To me (and to most Europeans!), the economic stuff just doesn't matter as much, so it's not a compelling argument to make. I had excellent cheap pasta on a beautiful plaza in Italy yesterday, I got there via 30 euro Ryanair flight, and I booked it over my abundant PTO. At no point exploring Florence, a city of 400.000 people, did I feel unsafe at all. That, to me, is the kind of stuff that really matters and the kind of stuff that I just can't have in the US. It's also the kind of stuff that is hard to capture in economic stats, which is why I don't really pay as much attention to them. I've lived in the US for almost a decade. I made a lot more money, but my life felt worse. But maybe Americans really do just have different values and they'd rather have more money on their bank account. I upvoted you because you argued your point well. It's just that we're talking past each other, quality of life is so much more than that. It's the environment you live in. It's knowing that a random piece of bread you'll buy in a supermarket or in a train station will have a certain level of quality. It's cheese that doesn't taste like plastic. It's having time to spend with your loved ones. It's nobody having to worry about a medical emergency bankrupting them. It's higher education not being gated to the well-off.
zzzeek 1y ago
Yeah I didn't say "richer" I said "better"

by rank0 1y ago

saubeidl 1y ago

Disposable income is a poor metric to use though. Money isn't everything. The french have better public transport, more social stability, a life expectancy that's higher by five (!) years etc etc. By pretty much whatever standard you use, their quality of life is much higher.

maeln 1y ago
From my anecdotal evidence (so it proves nothing), it seems like being poor / middle class in France is better than in the U.S. But being high-middle class / rich / in the owner class, is better in the U.S, since you already don't need the socialized healthcare, you actively seek segregated places to live, you do not take the public transport (or at least that often), etc, but you do get to enjoy all the amenities for rich people that the U.S offer, which is way more than France since it has a higher volume of rich people.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >my net worth is easily in the seven figures. I ended up moving away for the above reasons. Easy to high road others now, AFTER you made 7 figures in the country you now publicly despise, and wouldn't be able to where you're originally from. Why try to emotionally pull the ladder?
  - zorobo 1y ago
    I assume you are not living in Paris then. Here in Paris: - housing is expensive - it's not cardboard boxes, it's tents - you'd be mugged/knifed rather than shot, agreed - public transportation is good when not on strike. However, it's dirty and you might get robbed - the world's most creative government when it comes to taxes - it's still beautiful though…
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      I don't live in Paris. Generally, I don't love cities >2M inhabitants. The parts of Paris I went to recently were quite nice, but of course, a tourists view is different from a locals. I'd be surprised if it was anywhere near as bad as, say the SF tenderloin though.
  - tomhow 1y ago
    Please don't stir up nationalistic flamewar like this on HN.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      The sentiment expressed is explicitly anti-nationalist.
      - tomhow 1y ago
        Yes, right, and our position is the same, whichever the direction of the attack.
rank0 1y ago
Look, I am not saying life is inherently better in America vs France. This thread started as a debate about wages and social benefits. If you're truly interested in a good faith discussion on that topic, the metrics I'm highlighting are essential. If you've already cemented your opinion and just have a bone to pick with the United States there's probably not much common ground we can find. > Disposable income is a poor metric to use though. Hard Disagree. It's directly related to standard of living. You're also leaving out the other parts. It's adjusted for PPP, taxes, essential household costs (healthcare, shelter, etc), and social benefits. > Money isn't everything. The french have better public transport, more social stability, a life expectancy that's higher by five (!) years etc etc. Of course money isn't everything...but again we started off by talking about it. > By pretty much whatever standard you use, their quality of life is much higher. Except for household income, wealth, affordability, and others. See for yourself! This is an excellent resource: https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?lc=en&tm=NAAG&pg=0&snb=12&vw=tb&df[ds]=dsDisseminateFinalDMZ&df[id]=DSD_NAAG%40DF_NAAG_V&df[ag]=OECD.SDD.NAD&df[vs]=1.0&dq=A.AUS%2BAUT%2BBEL%2BCAN%2BCHL%2BCOL%2BCRI%2BCZE%2BDNK%2BEST%2BFIN%2BFRA%2BDEU%2BGRC%2BHUN%2BISL%2BIRL%2BISR%2BITA%2BJPN%2BKOR%2BLVA%2BLTU%2BLUX%2BMEX%2BNLD%2BNZL%2BNOR%2BPOL%2BPRT%2BSVK%2BSVN%2BESP%2BSWE%2BCHE%2BTUR%2BGBR%2BUSA.LES1M_BF90_POP%2BLES1M_NN_POP%2BLES1M_FAS_POP%2BB7GS1M_POP.USD_PPP_PS.&pd=2000%2C&to[TIME_PERIOD]=false&ly[cl]=TIME_PERIOD&ly[rw]=REF_AREA https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?lc=en&tm=NAAG&pg=0&snb=12... As another random (non-definitive) data point take the homelessness rate: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/homelessness-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/homelessn... I stand by my statement. Too many Americans don't appreciate how good they have it. Cultural differences are real.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  I think if you're a person that is primarily focused on economic indicators, I can see your point. Because you mentioned it, I do think a lot of this comes down to cultural differences. To me (and to most Europeans!), the economic stuff just doesn't matter as much, so it's not a compelling argument to make. I had excellent cheap pasta on a beautiful plaza in Italy yesterday, I got there via 30 euro Ryanair flight, and I booked it over my abundant PTO. At no point exploring Florence, a city of 400.000 people, did I feel unsafe at all. That, to me, is the kind of stuff that really matters and the kind of stuff that I just can't have in the US. It's also the kind of stuff that is hard to capture in economic stats, which is why I don't really pay as much attention to them. I've lived in the US for almost a decade. I made a lot more money, but my life felt worse. But maybe Americans really do just have different values and they'd rather have more money on their bank account. I upvoted you because you argued your point well. It's just that we're talking past each other, quality of life is so much more than that. It's the environment you live in. It's knowing that a random piece of bread you'll buy in a supermarket or in a train station will have a certain level of quality. It's cheese that doesn't taste like plastic. It's having time to spend with your loved ones. It's nobody having to worry about a medical emergency bankrupting them. It's higher education not being gated to the well-off.

zzzeek 1y ago

Yeah I didn't say "richer" I said "better"