7 ms·

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the pres

• quietbritishjim 1y ago
  The information is unverified because Israel does not allow journalists into Gaza.
  • FridayoLeary 1y ago
    [flagged]
  • YZF 1y ago
    [flagged]
    • asadm 1y ago
      IDF has been actively killing journalists too. So many that this is deadliest war for journalist to report on in recorded history.
      • mahirsaid 1y ago
        This is not a war. War is Ukraine vs Russia.
      • birn559 1y ago
        Could you provide sources? I would assume 'journalists' are only actively killed if they grab a weapon or conduct similar actions. My understanding of "actively killed" is thy have been the explicit target of an attack and not casualties in general.
        • bigyabai 1y ago
          News outlets tell Israeli officers where their journalists intend to be, and they wear jackets that identify them as members of the press. Preventing the journalists from dying is really a matter of communicating to each other, and using visual identification before engaging in direct fire. Both the officers and enlisted have the opportunity to cancel an illegitimate fire mission. Something doctrinal is responsible for this behavior. Given the unconscionable number of journalists who died at the IDF's hands, it seems like Israel is indeed using the transparency info from journalists to locate and target them with airstrikes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Gaza_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...
    • bigyabai 1y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Gaza_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_... Israel is the side with Datalink, in case this chart doesn't make it clear.
    • tehjoker 1y ago
      So if a journalist decides to wander away from the potemkin village they get denied access. The journalists going on these ridealongs are not doing journalism. This tactic, which america pioneered in response to vietnam war coverage, is designed to only allow journalists who will tell the right kind of narrative.
      • bigyabai 1y ago
        It's well-documented what they do to anyone who tries documenting the aftermath: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-troops-filmed-brutally-beating-palestinian-photojournalist-in-east-jerusalem/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-troops-...
        • YZF 1y ago
          This person, a Palestinian, was not attacked for documenting something he wasn't supposed to. That's not the claim in the article. He is said to have documented the "the aftermath of Hamas’s massacre on the Gaza-border communities.” but that doesn't seem to be directly relevant. The context is a protest: "Haruf says he was attacked without cause after leaving a prayer protest broken up by Israeli security forces in the Wadi Joz neighborhood." not the journalistic activities. I'm not justifying this FWIW, just that it doesn't prove what you're trying to prove. If anything the publication of this article in Israel shows Israel has freedom of press. also: "The Border Police later announced that it had suspended the two officers involved in the incident and that the Department of Internal Police Investigations has opened a probe into the matter." There is also followup (again in Israeli press): https://www.timesofisrael.com/border-police-said-to-reinstate-2-officers-filmed-beating-palestinian-journalist/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/border-police-said-to-reinstat... "The Union of Journalists in Israel condemned the incident and said it was “shocked by the violent attack” on Haruf. The union said the incident was “the 37th attack on Arab journalists since the beginning of the war” on October 7, when Hamas-led terrorists launched their murderous assault on southern Israel, killing 1,200 people, mostly civilians, and taking some 240 hostages of all ages. The union, in a December 15 statement, said “most of the attacks [were] carried out by the security forces. This is a reality that dramatically harms freedom of the press and the ability of journalists to perform their duties.”" Is this perfect? no. Is Israeli press generally free, attacks/criticizes the government, brings to light bad things that happen, and follow up on them? yes.
    • vFunct 1y ago
      Correct. Israel does not allow a free press. And this is how we know Israel does not believe in democracy and is not a democracy itself, since a free press is a requirement of democracy. Democracy isn't just having elections. Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Russia has elections, too.
      • YZF 1y ago
        The article we're talking about here is published in Israeli media.
        • kylebenzle 1y ago
          Unless what they're really doing is a thousand times worse and this is the propagandized version..
  • Slava_Propanei 1y ago
    [dead]
  • neepi 1y ago
    [flagged]
    • woooooo 1y ago
      History is nuanced. Shooting starving people should be one of those moments of clarity that cuts through the narrative.
      • atonse 1y ago
        I think that is what the parent is alluding to, when it comes to waiting for more facts. One of those facts might be intent or misheard orders. It might just be that this actually happened (as a war crime) but it is probably too early to tell. Regardless of what happened, it helps to wait until more info comes out.
        • neepi 1y ago
          Exactly that.
        • woooooo 1y ago
          It's been every day for weeks, there is video.
          • amendegree 1y ago
            There literally isn’t any video of GHF doing it.
        • asacrowflies 1y ago
          How long should we wait? Seems it's always just wait... Until it blows over and can be swept under the rug...again...
    • kylebenzle 1y ago
      This is my favorite response from you guys! "Look, children may be dying and maybe we're killing them but we need to verify and we need more time. Because first of all what were they even doing there? Oh and also this is our Land anyways and there were no deaths nobody died there aren't even any children in gaza!"
• notjulianjaynes 1y ago
  >(I wrote an extensive suite of software to track this) Interesting. . . do you have a page for the project or anything?
  • neepi 1y ago
    No it’s internally used. Think of it like archive.ph but with text extraction and a diff like interface over the text.
    • underdeserver 1y ago
      Can you share examples then?
      • mhb 1y ago
        I found it: https://magic-8ball.com/ https://magic-8ball.com/
• more_corn 1y ago
  Sorry, but the killing of unarmed civilians seeking aid has been reported half a dozen times by many different outlets. The IDF denials are getting quite absurd. The only one suffering from disinformation is you.
  • neepi 1y ago
    I haven’t made a point either way. Please don’t quote me on things I haven’t said. That is morally and intellectually dishonest.
    • joshuamorton 1y ago
      There is a point at which pleas to wait for "better" evidence can be construed as denials. "There is ample evidence and this is not a new accusation, so your request to wait and see rings hollow and appears to be a de facto request to not pass judgement on Israeli crimes" is neither morally nor intellectually dishonest.
• atoav 1y ago
  This has been one of the deadliest conflicts for journalists in history. The number of killed journalists is very safe data, since the names are known and the cause of death is typically relatively well researched. The story told by the data is that these journalists are overwhelmingly killed by Israeli forces, in some cases with prior notice of the press being where it was. So if the IDF wants the press to tell the true story on the ground maybe let them do their work without killing them? The quesrion is: at which point do we have to stop assuming incompetence and start to assume malice (at least in parts)? For me personally that point has been months in the past. This will be a stain on Israel for the rest of history.
  • neepi 1y ago
    I don't disagree with you there at all. That again backs up my point. There is a lot of information and evidence to back those cases up. Which should be the universal standard that we hold everyone accountable to. This information didn't just appear out of nowhere. It took time to collate, source and verify.
    • atoav 1y ago
      > This information didn't just appear out of nowhere. It took time to collate, source and verify. Could you try to rely less on using vague innuendo on HN? If you have reasonable doubt in a theory and/or additional/missing information that isn't purely anecdotal that lead you to your statement consider sharing it on here. If you don't have any information consider the option that your opiniom might not be as much supported by the ground truth as you probably like it to be. Journalists like these are professionals that are paid to work in a conflict zone, if they are killed, of course their death will be noted. It works like this in literally every conflict on earth and there are international organizations that monitor violence against journalists because they are an fundamentally important pillar of any free society. The question is why the technologically advanced IDF kills journalists at rates higher than in any other conflict zone on earth. This isn't a statistical anomaly that can be simply hand-waved away. It describes the nature of this conflict with numbers that are written with blood. Anybody who defends the killing of journalists in a war zone is on the wrong side of history, period.
• snickerbockers 1y ago
  Haaretz is the last news organization I would expect to knowingly spread anti-israel disinformation. If these guys are telling you what Israel is doing is bad then it's bad.
  • birn559 1y ago
    Could you elaborate? Because it's an Israeli news organization?
    • snickerbockers 1y ago
      Yes, and one of the more prominent ones at that. If they had a bias in this, I would expect them to be biased in favor of Israel not against it. If even they are saying Israel is committing these war crimes then I'm inclined to assume that the evidence must be very compelling.
      • edanm 1y ago
        Just for the record, this is almost certainly wrong in the sense you mean it. Haaretz is a (far?) left, anti-current-government newspaper. It's not outside the mainstream or anything - it is considered largely credible, and its articles are taken seriously - but most people in Israel would find it funny that you assume it wouldn't be biased against Israel. Lots of Netanyahu supporters routinely consider it a "traitorous" publication. I think its articles should be taken seriously, but you can't simply assume it's automatically right and not "biased". Think of it the way an American Democrat would think of Fox or something - the news org definitely has a viewpoint.
        • aisenik 1y ago
          Lots of people still believe that "critical of the government" is not the same as "biased against the country." That's an explicitly authoritarian belief and a disastrous framework to work within. It's antithetical to the concept of human rights and notable historical documents such as the American Constitution. The bias of a mainstream publication that's considered "traitorous" by genocidal authoritarian ethnonationalists is, given historical consideration, likely to be toward justice.
• kylebenzle 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • neepi 1y ago
    I suggest you re-read it a few times. I am not defending any party in this conflict. I want the truth to be established carefully for the sake of everyone. Misinformation just ends up with more bodies stacked up on both sides.
    • rini17 1y ago
      So far all evidence points to bodies being piled on one side. With only few exceptions. Going on over year and half without clear rationale other than vaguely "butbutbut human shields butbutbut propaganda". By avoiding to admit this you are indeed defending the attacker.
      • neepi 1y ago
        I’m amazed at how you managed to trivialise the deaths of 1915 people in that comment. All people matter on both sides and everyone deserves justice. That only comes if we make accurate prosecutions which requires evidence and due process. And how dare you make accusations along those lines. Your attitude contributes to the problem.
        • rini17 1y ago
          Fine, what steps were taken to accurately prosecute these 1915 deaths? Are there any people indicted and undergoing fair trial for that? Can you name them? ICC did, but then got practically canceled. So who is to do it and when? Oh you can't answer that easily without trivializing these deaths yourself. Accusing others, that are suspicious of all of this, of "attitude" is easier.
          • neepi 1y ago
            I haven’t accused anyone less than everyone. There are bad actors on all sides (this spans more than “both sides”). As for enforcement and prosecution the ICC warrants were justified and the situation that remains is tragic. You can thank the US for throwing a spanner in those works. I’m not sure why you keep trying to put words in my mouth. Perhaps to justify your partisan position rather than my entirely neutral one? Sure feels like it.
• amy214 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    Thank you for your unbiased opinion shedding objective light on this incident and reporting. You have brought forth excellent evidence for dismissing this evidence. Anyway, some more history to consider: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-11-17/ty-article/.premium/israeli-pm-in-67-well-deprive-gaza-of-water-and-the-arabs-will-leave/0000017f-e8df-da9b-a1ff-ecff5b720000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-11-17/ty-article/.p...
    • aisenik 1y ago
      I'm as prone to it as the next tech-influenced millennial, but we really need to consider the legibility of deadpan sarcastic mockery in an environment where people are inclined to sincerely hold outrageous beliefs. Credulity is boundless, even (especially) in this world of open information warfare. Messages that require side-channels and discrimination with intentionally limited information are guaranteed to be misperceived and likely to have harmful memetic impact.
      • sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        That's fair feedback! I struggled to tamp down on a snarkier response that read more like: "I am a direct beneficiary of one side of this debate. If we are to be intellectually honest then we need to be sure to cast as much skepticism as we can muster onto the other side." Agreed though, earnestness is one of our most urgent shortages.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • jakelazaroff 1y ago
    So because Israel has a "long history of humanitarianism", we can dismiss evidence of Israeli war crimes as fictitious hit jobs? And once we've dismissed all evidence of Israeli war crimes, we can conclude that Israel has a "long history of humanitarianism"? Rinse, repeat — do I have that right? The source is one of the biggest Israeli newspapers, by the way.
• Yeul 1y ago
  Wait and see while each day people keep dying? And who the hell is going to do these investigations?
• specialist 1y ago
  What measure of proof (evidence) do you require?
• lenkite 1y ago
  > All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. Why do you say its "unverified" ? The commander in question: Brigadier General Yehuda Vach is formally under investigation for several crimes already: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-said-to-launch-probe-into-unauthorized-demolition-of-central-gaza-hospital/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-said-to-launch-probe-into-... This nutcase general has faced consistent accusations from soldiers under his own command over the last year for over a dozen incidents alone. What is your holy threshold for evidence ? How can you "wait and see" if the press is not allowed at the food distribution site ? Basically, you are saying "wait and sweep it under the carpet".
• MrSkelter 1y ago
  The lack of journalism in this conflict is a direct result of Israel forbidding press access and their targeting of Palestinian and other journalists. This deliberate effort enables them to then criticize the reporting which is done and cast doubt over sources. Since October 7th sources from within Palestine have been accurate regarding deaths and actions. Often being attacked first and then quietly acknowledged later. There is no reason to doubt the reporting of Israel’s paper of record, which though considered left wing writhing Israel, supports Netanyahu’s attacks on Gaza and applies rigorous journalistic standards.