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> Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". So what? I don't get your point. Israel has continuously been oppressing the Palestinians for almost 80 year

> Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". So what? I don't get your point. Israel has continuously been oppressing the Palestinians for almost 80 years. That is immoral. Israel is in the wrong. > They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. You are just jumping to a different topic. I said nothing about its right to exist.

dingnuts 1y ago
[flagged]
- Newtonip 1y ago
  That's not entirely true but your are changing the subject. Have the Palestinians been ethnically cleansed? Yes or no? Have they been oppressed for almost 80 years? Yes or no?
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    No and yes. What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. To the extent there is an argument maximally antithetical to that cause, it’s arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist.
    - lormayna 1y ago
      > What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. Palestinians had several opportunities to get that, especially with Oslo agreements, but their leadership refused that everytime.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > their leadership refused that everytime I don’t think it’s fair to extend that to “Palestinians had several opportunities.”
        lormayna 1y ago
        Arafat was an hero for the Palestinians, but he was the main responsible for the failing of Oslo agreements. Moreover Hamas won the elections in Gaza with 45% of the votes and, as we saw immediately after 7/11, most of them was cheering for the slaughterings and the rapes. Unfortunately Palestinians have an huge responsibility on the actual situation.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Hamas won the elections in Gaza with 45% of the votes That was a generation ago. > as we saw immediately after 7/11, most of them was cheering for the slaughterings and the rapes One, it’s unclear how widespread this was. But also two, you see similar dehumanisation of Palestinians by Israelis today. That’s just how human psychology works in a war footing—I think we and chimpanzees are the only species that will go out of our way to exterminate a threat. > Palestinians have an huge responsibility on the actual situation Oh sure. And I think whether a future Palestinian state could exist peacefully bordering Israel is a real question. But I would push back on the notion that a plebiscite today requiring recognition of Israel as a sovereign state within its current borders in exchange for a Palestinian state (with West Bank settlements transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction) wouldn’t pass.
        lormayna 1y ago
        > That was a generation ago. Some surveys estimated that Hamas consensus was more than 60% before the 7/11. And this is the main reason why there is no other elections in West Bank since than: Fatah leadership is scared to lose elections. > you see similar dehumanisation of Palestinians by Israelis today I have many colleagues and friends in Israel and nobody of them is cheering about the civilian killings. At the opposite, they just demand peace and freedom for hostages. This is the main difference: while in Israel a large part of population is against war and atrocity, Hamas is still supported by an huge part of Palestinian population. > But I would push back on the notion that a plebiscite today requiring recognition of Israel as a sovereign state within its current borders in exchange for a Palestinian state (with West Bank settlements transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction) wouldn’t pass. This was mostly the proposal of Oslo agreements and Arafat, as Palestinian representative, refused that. Do you really think that a public opinion supporting Hamas() , will accept that now? () Hamas wrote in his statuta that any sionistic state must be unacceptable and Israel must be erased from the heart.

dingnuts 1y ago

[flagged]

Newtonip 1y ago
That's not entirely true but your are changing the subject. Have the Palestinians been ethnically cleansed? Yes or no? Have they been oppressed for almost 80 years? Yes or no?
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  No and yes. What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. To the extent there is an argument maximally antithetical to that cause, it’s arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist.
  - lormayna 1y ago
    > What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. Palestinians had several opportunities to get that, especially with Oslo agreements, but their leadership refused that everytime.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > their leadership refused that everytime I don’t think it’s fair to extend that to “Palestinians had several opportunities.”
      - lormayna 1y ago
        Arafat was an hero for the Palestinians, but he was the main responsible for the failing of Oslo agreements. Moreover Hamas won the elections in Gaza with 45% of the votes and, as we saw immediately after 7/11, most of them was cheering for the slaughterings and the rapes. Unfortunately Palestinians have an huge responsibility on the actual situation.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Hamas won the elections in Gaza with 45% of the votes That was a generation ago. > as we saw immediately after 7/11, most of them was cheering for the slaughterings and the rapes One, it’s unclear how widespread this was. But also two, you see similar dehumanisation of Palestinians by Israelis today. That’s just how human psychology works in a war footing—I think we and chimpanzees are the only species that will go out of our way to exterminate a threat. > Palestinians have an huge responsibility on the actual situation Oh sure. And I think whether a future Palestinian state could exist peacefully bordering Israel is a real question. But I would push back on the notion that a plebiscite today requiring recognition of Israel as a sovereign state within its current borders in exchange for a Palestinian state (with West Bank settlements transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction) wouldn’t pass.
        lormayna 1y ago
        > That was a generation ago. Some surveys estimated that Hamas consensus was more than 60% before the 7/11. And this is the main reason why there is no other elections in West Bank since than: Fatah leadership is scared to lose elections. > you see similar dehumanisation of Palestinians by Israelis today I have many colleagues and friends in Israel and nobody of them is cheering about the civilian killings. At the opposite, they just demand peace and freedom for hostages. This is the main difference: while in Israel a large part of population is against war and atrocity, Hamas is still supported by an huge part of Palestinian population. > But I would push back on the notion that a plebiscite today requiring recognition of Israel as a sovereign state within its current borders in exchange for a Palestinian state (with West Bank settlements transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction) wouldn’t pass. This was mostly the proposal of Oslo agreements and Arafat, as Palestinian representative, refused that. Do you really think that a public opinion supporting Hamas() , will accept that now? () Hamas wrote in his statuta that any sionistic state must be unacceptable and Israel must be erased from the heart.