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Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. (excuse

by avip 1y ago

Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. (excuse me for ignoring the history trolling)

breakyerself 1y ago
A right to exist doesn't justify a million other things that are completely unacceptable about the Israeli state.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - polynomial 1y ago
    It's a popular opinion these days, all the cool kids are doing it
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > It's a popular opinion these days Westerners with no connection to the Middle East deciding they know best for the people actually there has been a popular opinion for a long time.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        Suspiciously consistent with the Israeli-connected Americans who deliberately minimize the significance of issues in Lebanon and Syria. Annexing one's neighbors sure fosters some queer international consequences.
vFunct 1y ago
[flagged]
- avip 1y ago
  Wait are you calling me "European"? This is honestly insulting. Would you please apologize on-record or edit that out? Thanks
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - vFunct 1y ago
    [flagged]
- eastbound 1y ago
  > In any case, Israel doesn't even have the right to exist It does: UN resolution, 1967. That you do not recognize an entire state to exist is an admission to preparing a genocide. The fact that 4 countries around Israel are preparing genocide justifies Israel’s measures are reasonable to maintain peace. What is reasonable? Well it’s not like Gaza didn’t start the shooting with 7000 rockets pre-October festival (I was myself surprised that Israel didn’t respond pre-October). Those rockets were indiscriminate against population centers, each of them were a war crime. So it’s reasonable to reduce the neighbor’s ability to wage war to dust. Are the Gazans exempt from responsibility of their state’s actions? To answer, we need to check whether the Hamas was imposed to the Gazans or whether they voted for it and, in a broader sense, whether the Gazans wish the genocide of Israel. It turns out the 2006 elections were almost the last ones in Gaza, and that’s when the Hamas was elected (and the opponents were not better). So the Gazans are aligned with the actions performed by the collective group of their nation, it’s not a small group of extremists, it represents the will of the nation, and therefore the facilities and support network of the Hamas are part of the war logistics, and deserves to be reduced to dust. Did Israel act with restraint? Israel has the nuclear bomb and has enough power to genocide if they want. The fact that they perform spot actions instead of sweeping actions is proof that Israel tries to discriminate the military, its support network with genocide intent against Israel (=pretty much everyone) and tries to spare the innocents, is proof that Israel is not committing a genocide.
  - 1y ago
Newtonip 1y ago
> Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". So what? I don't get your point. Israel has continuously been oppressing the Palestinians for almost 80 years. That is immoral. Israel is in the wrong. > They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. You are just jumping to a different topic. I said nothing about its right to exist.
- dingnuts 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Newtonip 1y ago
    That's not entirely true but your are changing the subject. Have the Palestinians been ethnically cleansed? Yes or no? Have they been oppressed for almost 80 years? Yes or no?
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      No and yes. What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. To the extent there is an argument maximally antithetical to that cause, it’s arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist.
      - lormayna 1y ago
        > What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. Palestinians had several opportunities to get that, especially with Oslo agreements, but their leadership refused that everytime.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > their leadership refused that everytime I don’t think it’s fair to extend that to “Palestinians had several opportunities.”
sillyfluke 1y ago
Really? Is this why the world does not recognize the north part of Cyprus despite Turkish Cypriots not butchering any Greeks south of the border since 1974, when they unilaterally declared independence? Please name some other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" and embraced by the international community and educate the rest of us. And please don't include previously warring peoples whose leaders agreed on a population exchange and imposed that mandatory trauma on their own people. Palestine, Cyprus, and India had the unenviable luck of being long-term victims of a last gasp British empire's farewell divide-and-conquer gambit. (and excuse me for ignoring the deflection trolling)
- breppp 1y ago
  > Please name some other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" and embraced by the international community and educate the rest of us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istanbul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istan... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria_(1950%E2%80%931951) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exodus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exod... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_expulsion_of_Italians_from_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_expulsion_of_Italians_fro... It was quite common and very accepted method in the 1940s, hell, expelling 15 million germans, some living there for hundreds of years, was proposed by Churchill. The reason you never heard about the rest of these is because the people were resettled, not kept in a state of permanent inheritable refugee state financed by the UN with financial incentives to be kept that way.
  - sillyfluke 1y ago
    >Please name some of other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" (proceeds to list examples of countries which were already founded before the ethnic cleansing events they mention or events I already alluded to) It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to list Libyans expelling italians as a comparable example, when Libya was a colony of Italy. Ditto Germans, a people of belonging to the aggressor country. Bulgaria declared independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1908. And you have to explain why you included the pakistan link, as I already mentioned it in my post.

by avip 1y ago

Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. (excuse me for ignoring the history trolling)

breakyerself 1y ago

A right to exist doesn't justify a million other things that are completely unacceptable about the Israeli state.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
[flagged]
- polynomial 1y ago
  It's a popular opinion these days, all the cool kids are doing it
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > It's a popular opinion these days Westerners with no connection to the Middle East deciding they know best for the people actually there has been a popular opinion for a long time.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      Suspiciously consistent with the Israeli-connected Americans who deliberately minimize the significance of issues in Lebanon and Syria. Annexing one's neighbors sure fosters some queer international consequences.

vFunct 1y ago

[flagged]

avip 1y ago
Wait are you calling me "European"? This is honestly insulting. Would you please apologize on-record or edit that out? Thanks
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- vFunct 1y ago
  [flagged]
eastbound 1y ago
> In any case, Israel doesn't even have the right to exist It does: UN resolution, 1967. That you do not recognize an entire state to exist is an admission to preparing a genocide. The fact that 4 countries around Israel are preparing genocide justifies Israel’s measures are reasonable to maintain peace. What is reasonable? Well it’s not like Gaza didn’t start the shooting with 7000 rockets pre-October festival (I was myself surprised that Israel didn’t respond pre-October). Those rockets were indiscriminate against population centers, each of them were a war crime. So it’s reasonable to reduce the neighbor’s ability to wage war to dust. Are the Gazans exempt from responsibility of their state’s actions? To answer, we need to check whether the Hamas was imposed to the Gazans or whether they voted for it and, in a broader sense, whether the Gazans wish the genocide of Israel. It turns out the 2006 elections were almost the last ones in Gaza, and that’s when the Hamas was elected (and the opponents were not better). So the Gazans are aligned with the actions performed by the collective group of their nation, it’s not a small group of extremists, it represents the will of the nation, and therefore the facilities and support network of the Hamas are part of the war logistics, and deserves to be reduced to dust. Did Israel act with restraint? Israel has the nuclear bomb and has enough power to genocide if they want. The fact that they perform spot actions instead of sweeping actions is proof that Israel tries to discriminate the military, its support network with genocide intent against Israel (=pretty much everyone) and tries to spare the innocents, is proof that Israel is not committing a genocide.
- 1y ago

Newtonip 1y ago

> Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". So what? I don't get your point. Israel has continuously been oppressing the Palestinians for almost 80 years. That is immoral. Israel is in the wrong. > They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. You are just jumping to a different topic. I said nothing about its right to exist.

dingnuts 1y ago
[flagged]
- Newtonip 1y ago
  That's not entirely true but your are changing the subject. Have the Palestinians been ethnically cleansed? Yes or no? Have they been oppressed for almost 80 years? Yes or no?
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    No and yes. What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. To the extent there is an argument maximally antithetical to that cause, it’s arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist.
    - lormayna 1y ago
      > What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. Palestinians had several opportunities to get that, especially with Oslo agreements, but their leadership refused that everytime.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > their leadership refused that everytime I don’t think it’s fair to extend that to “Palestinians had several opportunities.”

sillyfluke 1y ago

Really? Is this why the world does not recognize the north part of Cyprus despite Turkish Cypriots not butchering any Greeks south of the border since 1974, when they unilaterally declared independence? Please name some other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" and embraced by the international community and educate the rest of us. And please don't include previously warring peoples whose leaders agreed on a population exchange and imposed that mandatory trauma on their own people. Palestine, Cyprus, and India had the unenviable luck of being long-term victims of a last gasp British empire's farewell divide-and-conquer gambit. (and excuse me for ignoring the deflection trolling)

breppp 1y ago
> Please name some other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" and embraced by the international community and educate the rest of us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istanbul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istan... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria_(1950%E2%80%931951) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exodus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exod... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_expulsion_of_Italians_from_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_expulsion_of_Italians_fro... It was quite common and very accepted method in the 1940s, hell, expelling 15 million germans, some living there for hundreds of years, was proposed by Churchill. The reason you never heard about the rest of these is because the people were resettled, not kept in a state of permanent inheritable refugee state financed by the UN with financial incentives to be kept that way.
- sillyfluke 1y ago
  >Please name some of other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" (proceeds to list examples of countries which were already founded before the ethnic cleansing events they mention or events I already alluded to) It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to list Libyans expelling italians as a comparable example, when Libya was a colony of Italy. Ditto Germans, a people of belonging to the aggressor country. Bulgaria declared independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1908. And you have to explain why you included the pakistan link, as I already mentioned it in my post.