5 ms·

How does one ensure that every seed can be completed without glitches? The website says this is the case, so I wonder how they do it because it seems nontrivial

How does one ensure that every seed can be completed without glitches? The website says this is the case, so I wonder how they do it because it seems nontrivial to generate valid seeds efficiently.

skyyler 1y ago
This is referred to by OoT runners as "Logic" and you can get an overview here: https://wiki.ootrandomizer.com/index.php?title=Logic https://wiki.ootrandomizer.com/index.php?title=Logic There are people that do "No Logic" randomizers. That's a very different kind of game than the original base game.
shhsshs 1y ago
The project has data about every location (doors, chests, etc.) and the conditions that must be met to allow access to those locations - for example [1]. From there the randomizer shuffles various entrances/exits and item locations around using rules that are mostly guaranteed to keep the game beatable. [1] https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/blob/d1bb6c27e2c54aaef74aa102a34361fa4b8721a9/data/World/Deku%20Tree.json#L33 https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/blob/d1bb6c2...
yuriks 1y ago
The rules for what locations/checks can be reached in what situations and with what items are painstakingly encoded in a machine readable format: https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/tree/Dev/data/World https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/tree/Dev/dat... I don't know the specifics of the OoTR algorithm but in general they work by considering a set of items which are currently "available", and then progressively picking a random item to place only in locations which are reachable with that current set of available items (which is expanded with each placement).
Graziano_M 1y ago
Think of every location in the game as accessible only after certain events or items are acquired. You can create a directed acyclic graph (how build systems figure out dependencies!). You can randomize all the locations of items, as long there is still a way to get from the starting node to the ending node.
- echelon 1y ago
  That's great! Now does the DAG make sense to humans? Does it ever put things in absurd places, eg. a necessary dungeon key in a random grotto halfway across the map (or in another time)? Without clues, how would you know where to check next? Does the game help at all? How out of sequence can the game get? Is Master Quest just the moral equivalent of a single static random roll of the Randomizer? Someone should do this with Majora's Mask, but in a way that can somehow combine the two games.
  - squigz 1y ago
    > Does it ever put things in absurd places, eg. a necessary dungeon key in a random grotto halfway across the map (or in another time)? Without clues, how would you know where to check next? Does the game help at all? I haven't played this OOT randomizer, but with the Wind Waker randomizer I've been playing, you can configure things like that - so dungeon keys could spawn in their own dungeon only, or literally anywhere in the world, or just other dungeons. It also has settings that allow you to talk to an NPC to get hints where game-progressing items are.
  - colechristensen 1y ago
    >Does it ever put things in absurd places, eg. a necessary dungeon key in a random grotto halfway across the map (or in another time)? Without clues, how would you know where to check next? Does the game help at all? It can be configured with options as to how items are distributed. But yeah, in general anything can be anywhere. Without clues: sometimes there are clues, those silly gossip stones in OoT can output a message about the general location of a thing, but you check everything you can. You learn which items open up each logic path and then open every chest, do every quest, etc. >How out of sequence can the game get? Completely. There are randomizer settings that require glitches and sometimes if the logic is wrong (it is sometimes) there are unwinnable seeds. > Someone should do this with Majora's Mask, but in a way that can somehow combine the two games. Someone did: https://ootmm.com/faq https://ootmm.com/faq There are a few multi-game randomizers out there. Some of them even run on real SNES hardware
    - 1y ago
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

How does one ensure that every seed can be completed without glitches? The website says this is the case, so I wonder how they do it because it seems nontrivial to generate valid seeds efficiently.

skyyler 1y ago

This is referred to by OoT runners as "Logic" and you can get an overview here: https://wiki.ootrandomizer.com/index.php?title=Logic https://wiki.ootrandomizer.com/index.php?title=Logic There are people that do "No Logic" randomizers. That's a very different kind of game than the original base game.

shhsshs 1y ago

The project has data about every location (doors, chests, etc.) and the conditions that must be met to allow access to those locations - for example [1]. From there the randomizer shuffles various entrances/exits and item locations around using rules that are mostly guaranteed to keep the game beatable. [1] https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/blob/d1bb6c27e2c54aaef74aa102a34361fa4b8721a9/data/World/Deku%20Tree.json#L33 https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/blob/d1bb6c2...

yuriks 1y ago

The rules for what locations/checks can be reached in what situations and with what items are painstakingly encoded in a machine readable format: https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/tree/Dev/data/World https://github.com/OoTRandomizer/OoT-Randomizer/tree/Dev/dat... I don't know the specifics of the OoTR algorithm but in general they work by considering a set of items which are currently "available", and then progressively picking a random item to place only in locations which are reachable with that current set of available items (which is expanded with each placement).

Graziano_M 1y ago

Think of every location in the game as accessible only after certain events or items are acquired. You can create a directed acyclic graph (how build systems figure out dependencies!). You can randomize all the locations of items, as long there is still a way to get from the starting node to the ending node.

echelon 1y ago
That's great! Now does the DAG make sense to humans? Does it ever put things in absurd places, eg. a necessary dungeon key in a random grotto halfway across the map (or in another time)? Without clues, how would you know where to check next? Does the game help at all? How out of sequence can the game get? Is Master Quest just the moral equivalent of a single static random roll of the Randomizer? Someone should do this with Majora's Mask, but in a way that can somehow combine the two games.
- squigz 1y ago
  > Does it ever put things in absurd places, eg. a necessary dungeon key in a random grotto halfway across the map (or in another time)? Without clues, how would you know where to check next? Does the game help at all? I haven't played this OOT randomizer, but with the Wind Waker randomizer I've been playing, you can configure things like that - so dungeon keys could spawn in their own dungeon only, or literally anywhere in the world, or just other dungeons. It also has settings that allow you to talk to an NPC to get hints where game-progressing items are.
- colechristensen 1y ago
  >Does it ever put things in absurd places, eg. a necessary dungeon key in a random grotto halfway across the map (or in another time)? Without clues, how would you know where to check next? Does the game help at all? It can be configured with options as to how items are distributed. But yeah, in general anything can be anywhere. Without clues: sometimes there are clues, those silly gossip stones in OoT can output a message about the general location of a thing, but you check everything you can. You learn which items open up each logic path and then open every chest, do every quest, etc. >How out of sequence can the game get? Completely. There are randomizer settings that require glitches and sometimes if the logic is wrong (it is sometimes) there are unwinnable seeds. > Someone should do this with Majora's Mask, but in a way that can somehow combine the two games. Someone did: https://ootmm.com/faq https://ootmm.com/faq There are a few multi-game randomizers out there. Some of them even run on real SNES hardware
  - 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]