6 ms·

So what does a modern ATC look like? can winehq save the day in the interim or in the transition?

by tsuru 1y ago

johnisgood 1y ago
Check out https://vatsim.net/docs/policy/approved-software https://vatsim.net/docs/policy/approved-software, of course this is for VATSIM only, but you should still get an idea. I use Euroscope. If anyone knows what ATC software they are using in the wild, let me know. A screenshot would suffice.
- malteeez 1y ago
  Some european countries are in the process of switching over to iCAS made by indra. A press release for that included a picture https://www.dfs.de/homepage/de/medien/presse/2023/30-03-2023-muenchner-fluglotsen-am-arbeitsplatz-der-zukunft/ https://www.dfs.de/homepage/de/medien/presse/2023/30-03-2023... There is also some work by the germans on moving the TID part to a web-based approach.
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    I cannot see much. :( Looks like Euroscope.
    - malteeez 1y ago
      [dead]
fallingknife 1y ago
Setting a protocol to handle air traffic control and collision prevention in airspace around airports is a 100% automatable problem. You don't even need a centralized control system. This can be handled entirely with software running on each plane. Same way a flock of birds can fly and never collide with each other.
- trehalose 1y ago
  What happens when an airplane's pilots have to radio ATC to request an emergency landing, and the planes' sensors have failed so it can't safety land itself?
  - fallingknife 1y ago
    If the plane is able to communicate with ATC it is able to broadcast to the other planes that it is on an emergency landing, so this is not an issue. Even if it has lost all communication this is still not an issue because all the sensors of the other planes can see it. So if the disabled plane immediately goes for an emergency landing, all other planes in the area are able to see its position and that it is not responding to pings, and therefore set safe courses that avoid it. This really isn't a very difficult problem.
- viraptor 1y ago
  Unfortunately that's not how things work in practice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain_(computing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain_(computing) If Jepsen fails every database coming from single source, imagine the chaos of synchronising a P2P of various clients of various versions over a very noisy link. We can't even achieve that with home automation meshes that send maybe 3 types of messages! Also you need to handle planes without computers - you can land a personal plane at almost any airport. (With lots of caveats but still) Also you need to handle planes with failing automation. Also you really want to know the situation on the runways, so there's really no need to remove the single source of truth here.
  - fallingknife 1y ago
    We operate cars on the road with not only no centralized system, but also minimally defined and enforced protocol, and yet Waymo has achieved a near zero collision rate inside a swarm of cars that are not running equivalent software. And this is in a situation where cars are only a few feet from each other while operating at top speed. So you can come up with a million objections but they are all solvable. As for automation failure, the rate of that can be easily made lower than the rate of human failure, which currently is fatal to a plane.

So what does a modern ATC look like? can winehq save the day in the interim or in the transition?

by tsuru 1y ago

So what does a modern ATC look like? can winehq save the day in the interim or in the transition?

Check out https://vatsim.net/docs/policy/approved-software https://vatsim.net/docs/policy/approved-software, of course this is for VATSIM only, but you should still get an idea. I use Euroscope. If anyone knows what ATC software they are using in the wild, let me know. A screenshot would suffice.

malteeez 1y ago
Some european countries are in the process of switching over to iCAS made by indra. A press release for that included a picture https://www.dfs.de/homepage/de/medien/presse/2023/30-03-2023-muenchner-fluglotsen-am-arbeitsplatz-der-zukunft/ https://www.dfs.de/homepage/de/medien/presse/2023/30-03-2023... There is also some work by the germans on moving the TID part to a web-based approach.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  I cannot see much. :( Looks like Euroscope.
  - malteeez 1y ago
    [dead]

fallingknife 1y ago

Setting a protocol to handle air traffic control and collision prevention in airspace around airports is a 100% automatable problem. You don't even need a centralized control system. This can be handled entirely with software running on each plane. Same way a flock of birds can fly and never collide with each other.

trehalose 1y ago
What happens when an airplane's pilots have to radio ATC to request an emergency landing, and the planes' sensors have failed so it can't safety land itself?
- fallingknife 1y ago
  If the plane is able to communicate with ATC it is able to broadcast to the other planes that it is on an emergency landing, so this is not an issue. Even if it has lost all communication this is still not an issue because all the sensors of the other planes can see it. So if the disabled plane immediately goes for an emergency landing, all other planes in the area are able to see its position and that it is not responding to pings, and therefore set safe courses that avoid it. This really isn't a very difficult problem.
viraptor 1y ago
Unfortunately that's not how things work in practice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain_(computing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain_(computing) If Jepsen fails every database coming from single source, imagine the chaos of synchronising a P2P of various clients of various versions over a very noisy link. We can't even achieve that with home automation meshes that send maybe 3 types of messages! Also you need to handle planes without computers - you can land a personal plane at almost any airport. (With lots of caveats but still) Also you need to handle planes with failing automation. Also you really want to know the situation on the runways, so there's really no need to remove the single source of truth here.
- fallingknife 1y ago
  We operate cars on the road with not only no centralized system, but also minimally defined and enforced protocol, and yet Waymo has achieved a near zero collision rate inside a swarm of cars that are not running equivalent software. And this is in a situation where cars are only a few feet from each other while operating at top speed. So you can come up with a million objections but they are all solvable. As for automation failure, the rate of that can be easily made lower than the rate of human failure, which currently is fatal to a plane.