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Another ridiculous use case is paying for tickets in car parks, some require a smartphone (with no cash or alternative options). And UK primary schools - catch

Another ridiculous use case is paying for tickets in car parks, some require a smartphone (with no cash or alternative options). And UK primary schools - catching up with the kids homework, messages from the teacher - requires an app and a smartphone! It's so frustrating!

antisol 1y ago
What happens when you tell them you don't have a smartphone and won't be getting one?
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>some require a smartphone Mandating the need of smartphone apps to access critical services and basic life necessities like payments, parking, refueling, charging your car, public transport tickets, etc should be banned under accessibility laws. All this only benefits the service provider, not the consumer, since if the service is broken in some way (LTE/internet issue, payment processor issue, backend/cloud outage, etc) or has terrible UX, then the externalities and negative effects of that are all on the customer to deal with. Because what else are you gonna do on the spot? Not charge your car? Leave it in the middle of the road? Not board the bus to get to work? The problem they caused becomes your problem to deal with even though you have the money to pay but no easy way to do it because of their crap. Governments need to hold service prodivers accountable for the misery they cause and have them offer payment solutions and alternatives to smartphone apps for such critical services.
- go_elmo 1y ago
  Its like trying to ban cars to stay with horse cariages. The wheels of time wont be turned back. Imo the issue is not Smartphones but addicting UX patterns implemented - those should be banned. Its possible to make Smartphone usage non addictive - add friction to "candy" eg uninstall social media apps (use web only) use a quiet launcher (no app icons), remove all notifications except emergency ones etc.
  - antisol 1y ago
    > the issue is not Smartphones Cool, so I assume you'll be able to tell me which smartphone and doesn't require agreeing to a EULA?
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    We're talking about different things here I think. What does phones and apps being addictive have to to do with the fact that a parking lot requires me to install an app to park my car or charge my car? There are a million other issues here than addictive apps. The internet connection could be down, he backend of the app could be down, etc. This shouldn't stop people from being able to use an important service like parking, charging, refueling, transportation, etc. You should be able to slot in some coins in a machine, get a paper ticket out, and that's it, you're in. >The wheels of time wont be turned back. They can be turned back by laws if the direction they've been turning by the unregulated free market lead us to a bad place that's discriminatory and causing misery to consumers, especially for critical services. We've been able to park and refuel cars fast and efficient for decades with no issues before apps and smartphones. Not all progress is good progress. Sometimes progress is just for the sake of cutting corners to increase profits for businesses at the expense of consumers. I don't want an "Bezos-fication" or "Musk-fication" of essential services.
    - go_elmo 1y ago
      Same for cars - you require a global functioning gas supply network to work & deliver gas nearby, it consists of 10k parts produced over the globe - a single pandemic can wipe everything out. Thats why I prefer a horse. Theres always gras nearby. I also hate apps for everything & want us to be free & have a simple world & life - I love the terminal & its 55 years old.. yeah, we have much in common friend
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        your comments -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
  - 1y ago
- Fredkin 1y ago
  ^This 100%. And sometimes I get the argument back: they've become so commonplace now that you're just being unreasonable. I'm required to wear clothes in public (Indecent exposure laws) and I need to have at least a pen or pencil to sign documents and do tax returns demanded by law. But I have a vast array of options when it comes to clothes and stationery, and most importantly I'm not required to agree to a foreign company's EULA to use them, unlike smartphones.
lrvick 1y ago
In those cases I just park and pay the ticket if I get one... which I can always pay online without an app. They always make collecting tickets easy. Once you know the non-advertized online web portal you can normally pay for spaces that way next time.
- ljf 1y ago
  While I agree that you don't need an app - you still need a smart phone to be able to buy that ticket from the website - unless you are carrying a tablet or laptop with a network connection.
  - lrvick 1y ago
    I do sometimes carry a pocket wifi-only laptop in cities for working on the go which has gotten the job done in the past to prove I could. In practice if they do not make it easy to pay then I just park without paying. The 1/10 times I actually get a fine works out to be cheaper than paying for parking up front.
    - ljf 1y ago
      Fair enough - you are lucky there - in the UK lots of city and council owned parking has ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) - just by driving onto the lot and by the sign you are deemed to have agreed to their conditions. If you don't buy a ticket you'll get an automatic fine through the post a week or so later. That said, roadside parking is far more hit and miss for ticketing, but as a source of revenue, most councils take it fairly seriously here for the free money.
      - lrvick 1y ago
        So your city/council actually have laws that require you to agree to the data sharing agreements with US companies like Google or Apple in order to use one of their devices to install an app in order to park? And if you don't pay hundreds of pounds for a smartphone, you are not allowed to park? Or if your battery is dead? Or if your religion prohibits the use of smartphones? If true, I bet framing it that way to the public would help get people on board with some law reform. No one should be depending on Google or Apple at a government or city or educational level in any way, including in the US.

antisol 1y ago

What happens when you tell them you don't have a smartphone and won't be getting one?

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>some require a smartphone Mandating the need of smartphone apps to access critical services and basic life necessities like payments, parking, refueling, charging your car, public transport tickets, etc should be banned under accessibility laws. All this only benefits the service provider, not the consumer, since if the service is broken in some way (LTE/internet issue, payment processor issue, backend/cloud outage, etc) or has terrible UX, then the externalities and negative effects of that are all on the customer to deal with. Because what else are you gonna do on the spot? Not charge your car? Leave it in the middle of the road? Not board the bus to get to work? The problem they caused becomes your problem to deal with even though you have the money to pay but no easy way to do it because of their crap. Governments need to hold service prodivers accountable for the misery they cause and have them offer payment solutions and alternatives to smartphone apps for such critical services.

go_elmo 1y ago
Its like trying to ban cars to stay with horse cariages. The wheels of time wont be turned back. Imo the issue is not Smartphones but addicting UX patterns implemented - those should be banned. Its possible to make Smartphone usage non addictive - add friction to "candy" eg uninstall social media apps (use web only) use a quiet launcher (no app icons), remove all notifications except emergency ones etc.
- antisol 1y ago
  > the issue is not Smartphones Cool, so I assume you'll be able to tell me which smartphone and doesn't require agreeing to a EULA?
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  We're talking about different things here I think. What does phones and apps being addictive have to to do with the fact that a parking lot requires me to install an app to park my car or charge my car? There are a million other issues here than addictive apps. The internet connection could be down, he backend of the app could be down, etc. This shouldn't stop people from being able to use an important service like parking, charging, refueling, transportation, etc. You should be able to slot in some coins in a machine, get a paper ticket out, and that's it, you're in. >The wheels of time wont be turned back. They can be turned back by laws if the direction they've been turning by the unregulated free market lead us to a bad place that's discriminatory and causing misery to consumers, especially for critical services. We've been able to park and refuel cars fast and efficient for decades with no issues before apps and smartphones. Not all progress is good progress. Sometimes progress is just for the sake of cutting corners to increase profits for businesses at the expense of consumers. I don't want an "Bezos-fication" or "Musk-fication" of essential services.
  - go_elmo 1y ago
    Same for cars - you require a global functioning gas supply network to work & deliver gas nearby, it consists of 10k parts produced over the globe - a single pandemic can wipe everything out. Thats why I prefer a horse. Theres always gras nearby. I also hate apps for everything & want us to be free & have a simple world & life - I love the terminal & its 55 years old.. yeah, we have much in common friend
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      your comments -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
- 1y ago
Fredkin 1y ago
^This 100%. And sometimes I get the argument back: they've become so commonplace now that you're just being unreasonable. I'm required to wear clothes in public (Indecent exposure laws) and I need to have at least a pen or pencil to sign documents and do tax returns demanded by law. But I have a vast array of options when it comes to clothes and stationery, and most importantly I'm not required to agree to a foreign company's EULA to use them, unlike smartphones.

lrvick 1y ago

In those cases I just park and pay the ticket if I get one... which I can always pay online without an app. They always make collecting tickets easy. Once you know the non-advertized online web portal you can normally pay for spaces that way next time.

ljf 1y ago
While I agree that you don't need an app - you still need a smart phone to be able to buy that ticket from the website - unless you are carrying a tablet or laptop with a network connection.
- lrvick 1y ago
  I do sometimes carry a pocket wifi-only laptop in cities for working on the go which has gotten the job done in the past to prove I could. In practice if they do not make it easy to pay then I just park without paying. The 1/10 times I actually get a fine works out to be cheaper than paying for parking up front.
  - ljf 1y ago
    Fair enough - you are lucky there - in the UK lots of city and council owned parking has ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) - just by driving onto the lot and by the sign you are deemed to have agreed to their conditions. If you don't buy a ticket you'll get an automatic fine through the post a week or so later. That said, roadside parking is far more hit and miss for ticketing, but as a source of revenue, most councils take it fairly seriously here for the free money.
    - lrvick 1y ago
      So your city/council actually have laws that require you to agree to the data sharing agreements with US companies like Google or Apple in order to use one of their devices to install an app in order to park? And if you don't pay hundreds of pounds for a smartphone, you are not allowed to park? Or if your battery is dead? Or if your religion prohibits the use of smartphones? If true, I bet framing it that way to the public would help get people on board with some law reform. No one should be depending on Google or Apple at a government or city or educational level in any way, including in the US.