11 ms·

You think because they're engaged that she was more likely to get a favorable offer?

by dkador 14y ago

te_chris 14y ago
It completely distorts the negotiating position because (assuming no divorce), she's going to benefit from the success either way.
rprasad 14y ago
Well, yes. Being engaged to the CEO usually has that effect, especially when the CEO himself is handling the negotiations. It would be different if someone else who she was not friends with (and who was not friends with the CEO) was handling the negotiation, but not much. In the end, being the CEO's future wife plays a substantial role in her situation.
- dkador 14y ago
  I think that's a fair thing to assume. Full disclosure: I'm Dan, one of the other co-founders of Keen. I actually did the negotiation with Michelle - Kyle delivered our original offer. But she's one of my best friends as well. As is Kyle. As is our other co-founder and the two other people on our team. The negotiation was awkward, but I'm personally convinced that we're a stronger team because of our close personal bonds. It's not for everybody or every team, of course, but I believe it works for us.
  - tomkarlo 14y ago
    Did the team contemplate in making this offer that if something went sour in that relationship, you'd end up with a CEO who has both personal drama and potentially a very difficult situation in the office, given that she'd be reporting to him? How did your corporate counsel feel about this? Your board? If she's not reporting to the CEO, how does her new manager feel about having a team member who's his bosses' fiancee? Would he be comfortable firing her if she fails to perform? I know this seems hypothetical, but I think anyone who's been around startup has seen some variant of this play out multiple times. It's bad enough when it's friends; it's even more treacherous when it's a fiancee/wife.
    - wetzler 14y ago
      Yes. Maybe a whole separate blog post coming on that :)
    - dkador 14y ago
      Of course we've thought of this (and a number of other hypotheticals). And of course we've discussed it, openly amongst the entire team as well as behind closed doors with our board and counsel. It does complicate things. In the end we felt like the positives (having Michelle on the team so we can take advantage of her strengths) outweigh the potential negatives. It could absolutely turn out badly. As with almost everything else in startups, we're making a hedged bet. And you're free to think we've made a mistake, of course, as long as you don't leave believing we haven't thought a ton about this. :) It would be different if we were inserting Michelle into some rigid organization structure, especially if she was reporting to somebody other than our CEO. We don't have that kind of structure, though, and even if we did, we would never tell a frontline manager to hire somebody based on nepotism. That's a sure-fire way to kill a company in my book.
      - tomkarlo 14y ago
        Fair enough, as long as you're going into this with open eyes. It's not like most risks that startups take; inherently, most people wildly underestimate the risk that a personal relationship will go sour down the road. (If we didn't, a lot fewer people would get married.) I'm pretty sure if you ask most folks getting married what they estimate their chance of staying together is, they'll pick a number higher than ~50%. Even if she's reporting directly to the CEO now, that raises its own questions, in particular for other employees. If I'm at her same level, do I feel like I'm going to get a fair shake if she and I are gunning for the same promotion? Down the road, as the organization grows, is she forever tied to reporting to the CEO? How do you ensure there's never a quid pro quo exchange that opens you to a lawsuit? It's those kinds of questions that scare most organizations away from having direct reports romantically involved. It's especially fraught in a relatively unstructured organization like a startup where things like promotions and org changes can be fairly sudden and subjective.
smackfu 14y ago
Surely it messes with things that a favorable offer to her is also a favorable offer to her husband.
rdl 14y ago
I have seen the opposite the case sometimes, too -- people overcompensate and treat their friends/spouses worse than they'd treat an arms length employee. I personally worked with a married couple as founders, and would never do this again (a lot had to do with them in specific, but the general failure mode of any relationship problems spilling over into business, on top of them always ganging up on others, seems general). I'd probably work at a company with siblings as founders, and maybe at a company where a couple were in different roles (founder + employee).

You think because they're engaged that she was more likely to get a favorable offer?

by dkador 14y ago

You think because they're engaged that she was more likely to get a favorable offer?

It completely distorts the negotiating position because (assuming no divorce), she's going to benefit from the success either way.

rprasad 14y ago

Well, yes. Being engaged to the CEO usually has that effect, especially when the CEO himself is handling the negotiations. It would be different if someone else who she was not friends with (and who was not friends with the CEO) was handling the negotiation, but not much. In the end, being the CEO's future wife plays a substantial role in her situation.

dkador 14y ago
I think that's a fair thing to assume. Full disclosure: I'm Dan, one of the other co-founders of Keen. I actually did the negotiation with Michelle - Kyle delivered our original offer. But she's one of my best friends as well. As is Kyle. As is our other co-founder and the two other people on our team. The negotiation was awkward, but I'm personally convinced that we're a stronger team because of our close personal bonds. It's not for everybody or every team, of course, but I believe it works for us.
- tomkarlo 14y ago
  Did the team contemplate in making this offer that if something went sour in that relationship, you'd end up with a CEO who has both personal drama and potentially a very difficult situation in the office, given that she'd be reporting to him? How did your corporate counsel feel about this? Your board? If she's not reporting to the CEO, how does her new manager feel about having a team member who's his bosses' fiancee? Would he be comfortable firing her if she fails to perform? I know this seems hypothetical, but I think anyone who's been around startup has seen some variant of this play out multiple times. It's bad enough when it's friends; it's even more treacherous when it's a fiancee/wife.
  - wetzler 14y ago
    Yes. Maybe a whole separate blog post coming on that :)
  - dkador 14y ago
    Of course we've thought of this (and a number of other hypotheticals). And of course we've discussed it, openly amongst the entire team as well as behind closed doors with our board and counsel. It does complicate things. In the end we felt like the positives (having Michelle on the team so we can take advantage of her strengths) outweigh the potential negatives. It could absolutely turn out badly. As with almost everything else in startups, we're making a hedged bet. And you're free to think we've made a mistake, of course, as long as you don't leave believing we haven't thought a ton about this. :) It would be different if we were inserting Michelle into some rigid organization structure, especially if she was reporting to somebody other than our CEO. We don't have that kind of structure, though, and even if we did, we would never tell a frontline manager to hire somebody based on nepotism. That's a sure-fire way to kill a company in my book.
    - tomkarlo 14y ago
      Fair enough, as long as you're going into this with open eyes. It's not like most risks that startups take; inherently, most people wildly underestimate the risk that a personal relationship will go sour down the road. (If we didn't, a lot fewer people would get married.) I'm pretty sure if you ask most folks getting married what they estimate their chance of staying together is, they'll pick a number higher than ~50%. Even if she's reporting directly to the CEO now, that raises its own questions, in particular for other employees. If I'm at her same level, do I feel like I'm going to get a fair shake if she and I are gunning for the same promotion? Down the road, as the organization grows, is she forever tied to reporting to the CEO? How do you ensure there's never a quid pro quo exchange that opens you to a lawsuit? It's those kinds of questions that scare most organizations away from having direct reports romantically involved. It's especially fraught in a relatively unstructured organization like a startup where things like promotions and org changes can be fairly sudden and subjective.

smackfu 14y ago

Surely it messes with things that a favorable offer to her is also a favorable offer to her husband.

rdl 14y ago

I have seen the opposite the case sometimes, too -- people overcompensate and treat their friends/spouses worse than they'd treat an arms length employee. I personally worked with a married couple as founders, and would never do this again (a lot had to do with them in specific, but the general failure mode of any relationship problems spilling over into business, on top of them always ganging up on others, seems general). I'd probably work at a company with siblings as founders, and maybe at a company where a couple were in different roles (founder + employee).