5 ms·

Haha, no. Like in sui where the validators halted and froze? Or Solana where dishonest stalkers rigged the delegated staking auction and stole from other staker

Haha, no. Like in sui where the validators halted and froze? Or Solana where dishonest stalkers rigged the delegated staking auction and stole from other stakers? What you are repeating is the same PoS nonsense. Get out of here. Eth drove off a cliff when it went PoS. It’s going to zero vs Bitcoin, like every other PoS (or alt) coin. It’s all just PoS cartels. Meanwhile, many people have their “edge” BitAxe earning Bitcoin. nb: PoS can never really be fairly distributed. It’s printed out of nothing to enrich the founders. The billionaires were dumping Sol on retail last cycle. It can never escape this. Eth was “premined”.

kinakomochidayo 1y ago
Ethereum is doing just fine after going PoS, in fact, it’s much more secure than when it was PoW from a security budget standpoint while achieving less inflation compared to Bitcoin, and will continue to remain secure compared to Bitcoin’s critical security budget issue as block rewards go down. It’s also special compared to other chains in that it started out as PoW for at least 7 years. Bitcoin has ASIC monopoly and conflicts of interest with core devs connected to companies dipping into mining. Solana and other chains are VC fueled crap though, I agree.
- proxynoproxy 1y ago
  And yet, every ETH is worth much less sats today then when it was PoW. Remember the flipping, lol. All the yields in the world don’t mean nothin’ if the value of the capital is not preserved. To say nothing about “security”. I would argue the complexity introduced by the beacon chain mechanism reduces security… but it’s debatable. You can keep beating the failing PoS drum or you can actually preserve your capital where other grubby humans can’t mess with it. I know what I’m doing.
  - everfree 1y ago
    ETH price has been performing poorly lately, therefore PoS is "failing"? That seems like quite the leap in logic to me. I'd like to mention by the way that Bitcoin has had two egregious bugs that caused network downtime - once in 2010 and again in 2013. Ethereum has had 100% uptime since inception. Part of this is due to Bitcoin having one reference implementation and Ethereum having five, so it's impossible for the entire network to run into the exact same software bug.
    - proxynoproxy 1y ago
      Yes, It’s been performing badly since PoS. Ugh. Satoshi wrote about this. Lockstep. Single Client = Good. multiple client = menace. I’m ignoring Knots because it’s in the menace category. Ethereum ignored this wise wisdom and ended up with 5. It’s no good, but in up is down land aka ETH, it’s celebrated. You can’t convince me otherwise.
      - everfree 1y ago
        > Ugh. Satoshi wrote about this. I don't believe he did, and I'm familiar with a lot of his writings. Do you have a source? > Single Client = Good. multiple client = menace. Two major bugs took 100% of the Bitcoin network down on two occasions. In contrast, several major bugs temporarily took out small subsets of Ethereum validators several times, but the network remained operational throughout. Due to EIP-1559, the network was not even degraded at all in terms of performance or throughput. Apparently you're right that I can't convince you otherwise. One network's major bugs have caused major outages, and another network's major bugs resulted in 100.0% uptime still being maintained, and you still think the one with the major outages has a better strategy to defend against bugs.
        proxynoproxy 1y ago
        Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1611#msg1611 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1611#msg1611 It’s not an apples to apples comparison — I was there in 2013 with the 0.4/0.5 bdb issue happened, it was a split (not downtime), and the community went with 0.4 until 0.5 was patched. The community was much smaller. There was no downtime. There could have been loses on the centralized exchange side for the few hours of ambiguity. maybe there was 1 public report of loss at the time. This is the lesson that ETH people were not around for. More moving parts; more failure cases. More client, more moving parts.
        everfree 1y ago
        > it was a split (not downtime) There were several significant double-spends. People were able to create fake transactions and scam each other. Preventing people from sending fake transactions is Bitcoin's one reason for existence. People made out with a bunch of stolen money. If everyone being able to send fake Bitcoins around and scam people doesn't count as downtime, I don't know what counts as downtime. Showing fake bitcoins is actively worse than if the network refused to process transactions at all. As a side note, due to its slashing system, Ethereum "fails closed" like this and refuses to confirm transactions if the network were majorly disrupted. > There could have been loses on the centralized exchange side for the few hours of ambiguity. maybe there was 1 public report of loss at the time. At the time, I remember several reports of relatively large losses (and gains, by the scammers). But the private losses are probably larger and they're just as important. When people (and exchanges) get scammed, they're generally incentivized to stay quiet about it. > This is the lesson that ETH people were not around for. The "ETH people" that matter - the protocol researchers and client developers and exchange CEOs - were for the most part all around during the early Bitcoin days. > More moving parts; more failure cases. More client, more moving parts. Ten cars have "more moving parts" than one car, and the fleet is much more prone to a failure of one of the parts in one of its cars. When two parts break at once, it's better to have a fleet of eight working cars than one broken car in need of two repairs. Thanks for the source, by the way. I think Satoshi was just as wrong there as he was when he thought Bitcoin would become a "peer to peer electronic cash system".
everfree 1y ago
Sui didn't halt because of PoS, it halted because of poor coding practices. Solana isn't rigged because it's PoS, it's rigged because its token is distributed mostly to insiders. > What you are repeating is the same PoS nonsense. Get out of here. That's rude and unhelpful. > Eth drove off a cliff when it went PoS. ETH is the only PoS token that's been performing relatively poorly lately, and it's still in the #2 spot by market cap. (And #1, surpassing Bitcoin, by most other network metrics). > The billionaires were dumping Sol on retail last cycle. Because they gave themselves a bunch of Sol. Fairly distributed PoS coins are not like this. > Eth was “premined”. 103 million of the current 120 million ETH (89%), you or I or anyone could have bought at the public token presale or mined since then. No one person owns more than 0.25% of the supply. That's hardly "premined". Compare that to Bitcoin, where Satoshi mined 5% of the supply while the network was little more than a whitepaper and a repo. That's 20x the largest holder of ETH, and it's a real risk that those keys come alive again some time in the future and cause a panic in the markets.
- proxynoproxy 1y ago
  60% of eth was printed from nothing and sold to insiders on day for Bitcoin! It’s all awful and inexcusable! (Edit for 60%)
  - everfree 1y ago
    See my other reply. The coins were not sold to insiders, and your percentage is wrong on top of that.
    - proxynoproxy 1y ago
      Updated to 60%. Your right I should have verified this.

kinakomochidayo 1y ago

Ethereum is doing just fine after going PoS, in fact, it’s much more secure than when it was PoW from a security budget standpoint while achieving less inflation compared to Bitcoin, and will continue to remain secure compared to Bitcoin’s critical security budget issue as block rewards go down. It’s also special compared to other chains in that it started out as PoW for at least 7 years. Bitcoin has ASIC monopoly and conflicts of interest with core devs connected to companies dipping into mining. Solana and other chains are VC fueled crap though, I agree.

proxynoproxy 1y ago
And yet, every ETH is worth much less sats today then when it was PoW. Remember the flipping, lol. All the yields in the world don’t mean nothin’ if the value of the capital is not preserved. To say nothing about “security”. I would argue the complexity introduced by the beacon chain mechanism reduces security… but it’s debatable. You can keep beating the failing PoS drum or you can actually preserve your capital where other grubby humans can’t mess with it. I know what I’m doing.
- everfree 1y ago
  ETH price has been performing poorly lately, therefore PoS is "failing"? That seems like quite the leap in logic to me. I'd like to mention by the way that Bitcoin has had two egregious bugs that caused network downtime - once in 2010 and again in 2013. Ethereum has had 100% uptime since inception. Part of this is due to Bitcoin having one reference implementation and Ethereum having five, so it's impossible for the entire network to run into the exact same software bug.
  - proxynoproxy 1y ago
    Yes, It’s been performing badly since PoS. Ugh. Satoshi wrote about this. Lockstep. Single Client = Good. multiple client = menace. I’m ignoring Knots because it’s in the menace category. Ethereum ignored this wise wisdom and ended up with 5. It’s no good, but in up is down land aka ETH, it’s celebrated. You can’t convince me otherwise.
    - everfree 1y ago
      > Ugh. Satoshi wrote about this. I don't believe he did, and I'm familiar with a lot of his writings. Do you have a source? > Single Client = Good. multiple client = menace. Two major bugs took 100% of the Bitcoin network down on two occasions. In contrast, several major bugs temporarily took out small subsets of Ethereum validators several times, but the network remained operational throughout. Due to EIP-1559, the network was not even degraded at all in terms of performance or throughput. Apparently you're right that I can't convince you otherwise. One network's major bugs have caused major outages, and another network's major bugs resulted in 100.0% uptime still being maintained, and you still think the one with the major outages has a better strategy to defend against bugs.
      - proxynoproxy 1y ago
        Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1611#msg1611 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1611#msg1611 It’s not an apples to apples comparison — I was there in 2013 with the 0.4/0.5 bdb issue happened, it was a split (not downtime), and the community went with 0.4 until 0.5 was patched. The community was much smaller. There was no downtime. There could have been loses on the centralized exchange side for the few hours of ambiguity. maybe there was 1 public report of loss at the time. This is the lesson that ETH people were not around for. More moving parts; more failure cases. More client, more moving parts.
        everfree 1y ago
        > it was a split (not downtime) There were several significant double-spends. People were able to create fake transactions and scam each other. Preventing people from sending fake transactions is Bitcoin's one reason for existence. People made out with a bunch of stolen money. If everyone being able to send fake Bitcoins around and scam people doesn't count as downtime, I don't know what counts as downtime. Showing fake bitcoins is actively worse than if the network refused to process transactions at all. As a side note, due to its slashing system, Ethereum "fails closed" like this and refuses to confirm transactions if the network were majorly disrupted. > There could have been loses on the centralized exchange side for the few hours of ambiguity. maybe there was 1 public report of loss at the time. At the time, I remember several reports of relatively large losses (and gains, by the scammers). But the private losses are probably larger and they're just as important. When people (and exchanges) get scammed, they're generally incentivized to stay quiet about it. > This is the lesson that ETH people were not around for. The "ETH people" that matter - the protocol researchers and client developers and exchange CEOs - were for the most part all around during the early Bitcoin days. > More moving parts; more failure cases. More client, more moving parts. Ten cars have "more moving parts" than one car, and the fleet is much more prone to a failure of one of the parts in one of its cars. When two parts break at once, it's better to have a fleet of eight working cars than one broken car in need of two repairs. Thanks for the source, by the way. I think Satoshi was just as wrong there as he was when he thought Bitcoin would become a "peer to peer electronic cash system".

everfree 1y ago

Sui didn't halt because of PoS, it halted because of poor coding practices. Solana isn't rigged because it's PoS, it's rigged because its token is distributed mostly to insiders. > What you are repeating is the same PoS nonsense. Get out of here. That's rude and unhelpful. > Eth drove off a cliff when it went PoS. ETH is the only PoS token that's been performing relatively poorly lately, and it's still in the #2 spot by market cap. (And #1, surpassing Bitcoin, by most other network metrics). > The billionaires were dumping Sol on retail last cycle. Because they gave themselves a bunch of Sol. Fairly distributed PoS coins are not like this. > Eth was “premined”. 103 million of the current 120 million ETH (89%), you or I or anyone could have bought at the public token presale or mined since then. No one person owns more than 0.25% of the supply. That's hardly "premined". Compare that to Bitcoin, where Satoshi mined 5% of the supply while the network was little more than a whitepaper and a repo. That's 20x the largest holder of ETH, and it's a real risk that those keys come alive again some time in the future and cause a panic in the markets.

proxynoproxy 1y ago
60% of eth was printed from nothing and sold to insiders on day for Bitcoin! It’s all awful and inexcusable! (Edit for 60%)
- everfree 1y ago
  See my other reply. The coins were not sold to insiders, and your percentage is wrong on top of that.
  - proxynoproxy 1y ago
    Updated to 60%. Your right I should have verified this.