8 ms·

A similar process is happening with zellij and tmux. Since I switched over I feel that tmux is obsolete.

lxgr 1y ago
What does it do better than tmux? Or is it more of a fish vs. zsh type of situation, where neither is obsolete, but the target audience is just very different?
- thesuitonym 1y ago
  Among a certain subset of linux users, new is always better.
- kstrauser 1y ago
  A quick example is that mouse scrolling works by default. I see it more like ripgrep vs grep. Either can do almost anything the other can, but one has much more modern, ergonomic defaults.
- eblume 1y ago
  Definitely more of a fish vs zsh situation, in my opinion. tmux, to me, feels like "modern screen". It has some cool features, but at the end of the day, it just wants to be a terminal multiplexer. Great! Zellij on the other hand seems to offer terminal multiplexing as an obvious first-class use case but "not the whole point". At the surface, Zellij is an opinionated terminal multiplexer that uses a nice TUI to give discoverability which you can turn off when you're ready to gain screen real estate. It's easy to make Zellij behave exactly like tmux/screen, and it's easy to configure via a single config file. Where Zellij takes a turn in to a different direction, however, is that the workspaces you can configure with it can do all sorts of interesting things. For instance I once built[0] a python cli app which had a command that would launch a zellij workspace with various tabs plugged in to other entrypoints of that same python cli, basically allowing me to develop a multi-pane TUI as a single python Typer app. In one pane I had the main ui, and then in another stacked pane I had some diagnostic info as well as a chat session with an llm that can do tool-calling back out to the python cli again to update the session's state. I think wrapping up a project's dev environment as a combination of mise (mise.jdx.dev) and zellij or nix+zellij to quickly onboard devs to, say, a containerized development environment, seems like a really neat idea. 0: https://github.com/eblume/mole/blob/main/src/mole/zonein.py https://github.com/eblume/mole/blob/main/src/mole/zonein.py -- but this is mostly derelict code now, I've moved on and don't use zellij much currently.
  - hnlmorg 1y ago
    > Where Zellij takes a turn in to a different direction, however, is that the workspaces you can configure with it can do all sorts of interesting things. That’s been a pretty standard feature of tmux since forever. In fact the reason I first discovered tmux was because some Irssi (terminal IRC client) plugins used tmux to create additional panes for Irssi. tmux is one of those tools that does a lot more than most people realise but the learning curve is steep and features aren’t easy to discover. Zellij looks interesting but these days I mostly use tmux as a control plane rather than a terminal UI. So the enhancements of Zellij are wasted on me.
- psychoslave 1y ago
  I used to used zsh, like I still have have karma moving up on stackoverflow as I answered my own questions on some obscure configuration fine tuning. But currently I'm more in a "give me the thing that work off the shelf" moment, so I take fish and don't plan to either look back. Byobu with tmux as backend is my go to solution if I want a multiplexer, for what it worths.
fullstop 1y ago
I hadn't used Zellij before, but I tried it out. Visually it works better than tmux and it shares enough key bindings with tmux to make it a pretty seamless transition. With that being said, the binary is huge. I get that zellij is statically linked, but tmux is about 900KiB and has minimal dependencies. I'm flabbergasted that a terminal multiplexer, stripped, is 38MiB.
- spookie 1y ago
  Looking at the source code I assume it's just the amount of cargo deps. Some of which I'm not sure what place they have on a tmux at a first glance.
  - fullstop 1y ago
    Hopefully some effort is eventually put into slimming things down.
- kstrauser 1y ago
  True, but zellij also does more. I'd also give it more of a stink eye if it were something I were running many times inside the inner loop of a script, but as something you generally launch once and leave running forever, eh. I occasionally have to recalibrate my units. I just launched Emacs on my Mac and it's using 350MB of RAM. That's astonishing when I think about Amiga programs I wrote, but it's also just 0.53% of the RAM in this particularly machine. It's probably larger than it could be if someone ruthlessly trimmed it back, but I'd rather spend that time using the other 99.4% of my machine to do more fun stuff.
  - fullstop 1y ago
    I have a few embedded devices which have just 128MiB of flash, and they can run tmux just fine. I wouldn't even consider zellij for this purpose, of course, and having tmux down there is more of a "this is a nice thing for development purposes" thing. Regarding memory usage, Zellij appears to take up 63 MiB versus tmux's 3.8MiB. It's nice and all, but quite a pig. This is on Linux, maybe Mac is different.
pabs3 1y ago
Terminals are obsoleted by Arcan: https://arcan-fe.com/2025/01/27/sunsetting-cursed-terminal-emulation/ https://arcan-fe.com/2025/01/27/sunsetting-cursed-terminal-e...
- skydhash 1y ago
  From a quick read, all I can see is a manifesto for emacs.
- procaryote 1y ago
  How though? Genuine question; x11 didn't obsolete terminals. Does Arcan do something X11 couldn't?

lxgr 1y ago

What does it do better than tmux? Or is it more of a fish vs. zsh type of situation, where neither is obsolete, but the target audience is just very different?

thesuitonym 1y ago
Among a certain subset of linux users, new is always better.
kstrauser 1y ago
A quick example is that mouse scrolling works by default. I see it more like ripgrep vs grep. Either can do almost anything the other can, but one has much more modern, ergonomic defaults.
eblume 1y ago
Definitely more of a fish vs zsh situation, in my opinion. tmux, to me, feels like "modern screen". It has some cool features, but at the end of the day, it just wants to be a terminal multiplexer. Great! Zellij on the other hand seems to offer terminal multiplexing as an obvious first-class use case but "not the whole point". At the surface, Zellij is an opinionated terminal multiplexer that uses a nice TUI to give discoverability which you can turn off when you're ready to gain screen real estate. It's easy to make Zellij behave exactly like tmux/screen, and it's easy to configure via a single config file. Where Zellij takes a turn in to a different direction, however, is that the workspaces you can configure with it can do all sorts of interesting things. For instance I once built[0] a python cli app which had a command that would launch a zellij workspace with various tabs plugged in to other entrypoints of that same python cli, basically allowing me to develop a multi-pane TUI as a single python Typer app. In one pane I had the main ui, and then in another stacked pane I had some diagnostic info as well as a chat session with an llm that can do tool-calling back out to the python cli again to update the session's state. I think wrapping up a project's dev environment as a combination of mise (mise.jdx.dev) and zellij or nix+zellij to quickly onboard devs to, say, a containerized development environment, seems like a really neat idea. 0: https://github.com/eblume/mole/blob/main/src/mole/zonein.py https://github.com/eblume/mole/blob/main/src/mole/zonein.py -- but this is mostly derelict code now, I've moved on and don't use zellij much currently.
- hnlmorg 1y ago
  > Where Zellij takes a turn in to a different direction, however, is that the workspaces you can configure with it can do all sorts of interesting things. That’s been a pretty standard feature of tmux since forever. In fact the reason I first discovered tmux was because some Irssi (terminal IRC client) plugins used tmux to create additional panes for Irssi. tmux is one of those tools that does a lot more than most people realise but the learning curve is steep and features aren’t easy to discover. Zellij looks interesting but these days I mostly use tmux as a control plane rather than a terminal UI. So the enhancements of Zellij are wasted on me.
psychoslave 1y ago
I used to used zsh, like I still have have karma moving up on stackoverflow as I answered my own questions on some obscure configuration fine tuning. But currently I'm more in a "give me the thing that work off the shelf" moment, so I take fish and don't plan to either look back. Byobu with tmux as backend is my go to solution if I want a multiplexer, for what it worths.

fullstop 1y ago

I hadn't used Zellij before, but I tried it out. Visually it works better than tmux and it shares enough key bindings with tmux to make it a pretty seamless transition. With that being said, the binary is huge. I get that zellij is statically linked, but tmux is about 900KiB and has minimal dependencies. I'm flabbergasted that a terminal multiplexer, stripped, is 38MiB.

spookie 1y ago
Looking at the source code I assume it's just the amount of cargo deps. Some of which I'm not sure what place they have on a tmux at a first glance.
- fullstop 1y ago
  Hopefully some effort is eventually put into slimming things down.
kstrauser 1y ago
True, but zellij also does more. I'd also give it more of a stink eye if it were something I were running many times inside the inner loop of a script, but as something you generally launch once and leave running forever, eh. I occasionally have to recalibrate my units. I just launched Emacs on my Mac and it's using 350MB of RAM. That's astonishing when I think about Amiga programs I wrote, but it's also just 0.53% of the RAM in this particularly machine. It's probably larger than it could be if someone ruthlessly trimmed it back, but I'd rather spend that time using the other 99.4% of my machine to do more fun stuff.
- fullstop 1y ago
  I have a few embedded devices which have just 128MiB of flash, and they can run tmux just fine. I wouldn't even consider zellij for this purpose, of course, and having tmux down there is more of a "this is a nice thing for development purposes" thing. Regarding memory usage, Zellij appears to take up 63 MiB versus tmux's 3.8MiB. It's nice and all, but quite a pig. This is on Linux, maybe Mac is different.

pabs3 1y ago

Terminals are obsoleted by Arcan: https://arcan-fe.com/2025/01/27/sunsetting-cursed-terminal-emulation/ https://arcan-fe.com/2025/01/27/sunsetting-cursed-terminal-e...

skydhash 1y ago
From a quick read, all I can see is a manifesto for emacs.
procaryote 1y ago
How though? Genuine question; x11 didn't obsolete terminals. Does Arcan do something X11 couldn't?