7 ms·

Do EU nations consider themselves sovereign or not? Cause it seems like if the EU can punish them for exercising sovereignty, they are beholden to the whims of

Do EU nations consider themselves sovereign or not? Cause it seems like if the EU can punish them for exercising sovereignty, they are beholden to the whims of outsiders.

thomassmith65 1y ago
It wouldn't be much of a union if its member states insisted on absolute sovereignty.
- like_any_other 1y ago
  Granted the GP expressed themself vaguely, but there's a large gulf between "absolute" sovereignty, and meddling in internal affairs to such a degree that even what speech is permitted to citizens is out of the hands of the local government, and by extension, the local population. I wonder if the Irish would have still decided to join the EU, if they had known the EU would then write their speech laws.
  - thomassmith65 1y ago
    Ireland was a miserable place for most of the 20th Century. It's debatable to what extent the realization of the EU contributed to the Good Friday Agreement, and the Celtic Tiger, but in the minds of most Irish, the correlation is meaningful. So I will hazard a guess that few Irish regret joining the EU.
    - like_any_other 1y ago
      When Ireland joined, it was called the "European Economic Community". Presumably they did not expect those "economics" to include speech laws. They might resent being forced to abdicate sovereignty for economic development, by what to all appearances was a bait & switch.
      - thomassmith65 1y ago
        I'm not Irish. I know the country quite well, but not enough to speculate further on public opinion there. If anyone reading this is actually Irish, perhaps they could address this?
      - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
        You make it sound like the member countries didn't all agree and vote for this, but instead is being imposed by decree.
        like_any_other 1y ago
        I've found it a bit difficult to track down exactly which EU law this stems from - https://migrant-integration.ec.europa.eu/sites/default/files/2010-10/docl_16578_575022816.pdf https://migrant-integration.ec.europa.eu/sites/default/files... makes reference to various council decisions, but those are not voted on by MEPs. Regardless, even if this is the clear result of a vote, and not some creative interpretation of law, Ireland has 14 MEPs, Germany has 96, and the whole EU has 720. Ireland can be dragged into anything even if their MEPs are in unanimous opposition. And given Irish resistance to changing their laws in this direction, clearly they don't all agree, which is why the EU must threaten them into compliance.
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    The EU is more popular in Ireland than in all but one other European country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism#Eurobarometer_surveys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism#Eurobarometer_s...
- ApolloFortyNine 1y ago
  There's absolute sovereignty, and then there's the speech of your own citizens within your own borders. But in reality yea, the EU is essentially at the articles of confederation stage of the US. The EU has been flexing its muscles with what laws they can enforce on their members, and I'd expect the eventual EU army to be the turning point where people start to realize the EU election is likely more important, or at least equally important, as their local elections.

Do EU nations consider themselves sovereign or not? Cause it seems like if the EU can punish them for exercising sovereignty, they are beholden to the whims of outsiders.

thomassmith65 1y ago

It wouldn't be much of a union if its member states insisted on absolute sovereignty.

like_any_other 1y ago
Granted the GP expressed themself vaguely, but there's a large gulf between "absolute" sovereignty, and meddling in internal affairs to such a degree that even what speech is permitted to citizens is out of the hands of the local government, and by extension, the local population. I wonder if the Irish would have still decided to join the EU, if they had known the EU would then write their speech laws.
- thomassmith65 1y ago
  Ireland was a miserable place for most of the 20th Century. It's debatable to what extent the realization of the EU contributed to the Good Friday Agreement, and the Celtic Tiger, but in the minds of most Irish, the correlation is meaningful. So I will hazard a guess that few Irish regret joining the EU.
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    When Ireland joined, it was called the "European Economic Community". Presumably they did not expect those "economics" to include speech laws. They might resent being forced to abdicate sovereignty for economic development, by what to all appearances was a bait & switch.
    - thomassmith65 1y ago
      I'm not Irish. I know the country quite well, but not enough to speculate further on public opinion there. If anyone reading this is actually Irish, perhaps they could address this?
    - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
      You make it sound like the member countries didn't all agree and vote for this, but instead is being imposed by decree.
      - like_any_other 1y ago
        I've found it a bit difficult to track down exactly which EU law this stems from - https://migrant-integration.ec.europa.eu/sites/default/files/2010-10/docl_16578_575022816.pdf https://migrant-integration.ec.europa.eu/sites/default/files... makes reference to various council decisions, but those are not voted on by MEPs. Regardless, even if this is the clear result of a vote, and not some creative interpretation of law, Ireland has 14 MEPs, Germany has 96, and the whole EU has 720. Ireland can be dragged into anything even if their MEPs are in unanimous opposition. And given Irish resistance to changing their laws in this direction, clearly they don't all agree, which is why the EU must threaten them into compliance.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  The EU is more popular in Ireland than in all but one other European country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism#Eurobarometer_surveys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism#Eurobarometer_s...
ApolloFortyNine 1y ago
There's absolute sovereignty, and then there's the speech of your own citizens within your own borders. But in reality yea, the EU is essentially at the articles of confederation stage of the US. The EU has been flexing its muscles with what laws they can enforce on their members, and I'd expect the eventual EU army to be the turning point where people start to realize the EU election is likely more important, or at least equally important, as their local elections.