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Europe „needs to pay up […] for Palestine” .. can you expand on this a little why you'd think that?

by mobtrain 1y ago

mpweiher 1y ago
Yeah, funding a terror group that wants to destroy the west seems like a suboptimal use of our wealth.
- yladiz 1y ago
  You do realize that Hamas and Palestine are not the same thing right, even if they are obviously related? Funding aid for Palestine is not the same as funding Hamas, even if it is impossible to avoid some money being used in ways it’s not supposed to.
  - egisspegis 1y ago
    Should we fund/send aid for russia too? Since, you know, russian army is not the same as russian people. Or maybe we should lift sanctions off russia? I have a hunch a lot of pro-hamas people would love that.
    - yladiz 1y ago
      Are the Russian people being persecuted such that many of them are being bombed in their homes after being given a token amount of time to evacuate, or many are starving to death?
      - mpweiher 1y ago
        No they're not. Because the Russians are the actual perpetrators. Just like Hamas is. Israel is defending itself against that aggression. And yeah, being the civilian population of a brutal dictatorship that wages war against neighbor(s) without regard to the well-being of its own population sucks. It's horrible. Should Ukraine stop defending itself because some Russians may get hurt? Should the allies not have conquered Germany and Japan in WW2, because of the toll on the German civilian population? Yes, war is horrible. Pro Tip: don't start wars.
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    Well, in fact it is. First the "official" agencies in charge of most of this aid are practically indistinguishable from Hamas. Second, most if not all the funds get diverted. Third, Hamas appears to enjoy widespread support within the Palestinian population, as shown by the last free elections, which Hamas won handily, as well as opinion polls and public displays. And I am not talking about basic humanitarian aid such as food and medicines. I am talking about the high-level assistance, construction aid. Famously, water pipes paid for by the EU were torn out and used to make rockets and/or rocket launchers.
- disgruntledphd2 1y ago
  This is tricky. Hamas are definitely bad guys, but it's not right to punish the Palestinians for their actions. The EU broke off formal relations with Hamas in 2007, aid is different though.
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    1. The Palestinians are not being "punished". That would actually be illegal and is not what Israel is doing. Israel is trying to destroy the party that attacked them, which is a legitimate war aim. 2. Being the civilian population of a dictatorship waging a brutal war of annihilation against its neighbors sucks, but is not the fault of the party being attacked and defending itself from said brutal attack. 3. Particularly if that dictatorship very explicitly uses the civilian population as human shields (an actual war crime) and does everything to maximize civilian casualties. Again, this is horrible, but not on the party that was attacked by said dictatorship, but rather on the dictatorship 4. Unlike, say, Nazi Germany, the last election produced a very solid majority for the party that is now running the dictatorship. And polls as well as public display, as much as those can be trusted, show a significant if not overwhelming majority in support of the war of annihilation waged against Israel.
    - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
      So you're telling me that Israel have not been stopping aid from getting into Gaza for three weeks now? That is definitely a war crime. And basically Hamas are fighting a guerrilla war and engaging in acts of terror similar to what the Zionists engaged in pre 48. If that was ok, then surely what Hamas are doing is fine? I'm really confused about your notion that the Israeli state is being attacked. It's more accurate to say that both sides are being attacked, and only one side is engaging in plans to displace one side. The last election was in 2007, half the Gaza population wasn't even born then. By your logic the carbrt bombing of Dresden and nuking Japan were fine, is that a fair summation of your position?
      - mpweiher 1y ago
        Yeah, it's not a war crime. Israel is not required to supply its enemy. If the enemy takes control of humanitarian aid shipments, which Hamas has done consistently from the start, the requirement to supply aid no longer applies. So Israel has been over-fulfilling its requirements. And when it stops over-fulfilling people start accusing it of war crimes. You know what's a war crime? - Using your own civilian population as human shields - Commandeering humanitarian aid - Unprovoked attacks targeting civilians - Using hospitals and schools to launch attacks (including rocket attacks) Nothing about war is "OK", and neither is your attempt at framing. War is horrible. Pro-Tip: don't start wars. Free bonus pro-tip: don't start wars and then cry victim when you start losing. However, neither Dresden nor the nuclear attacks were "genocide". Look it up. And last I checked, the consensus is that they were not war crimes, although a vocal minority claims otherwise.

Europe „needs to pay up […] for Palestine” .. can you expand on this a little why you'd think that?

mpweiher 1y ago

Yeah, funding a terror group that wants to destroy the west seems like a suboptimal use of our wealth.

yladiz 1y ago
You do realize that Hamas and Palestine are not the same thing right, even if they are obviously related? Funding aid for Palestine is not the same as funding Hamas, even if it is impossible to avoid some money being used in ways it’s not supposed to.
- egisspegis 1y ago
  Should we fund/send aid for russia too? Since, you know, russian army is not the same as russian people. Or maybe we should lift sanctions off russia? I have a hunch a lot of pro-hamas people would love that.
  - yladiz 1y ago
    Are the Russian people being persecuted such that many of them are being bombed in their homes after being given a token amount of time to evacuate, or many are starving to death?
    - mpweiher 1y ago
      No they're not. Because the Russians are the actual perpetrators. Just like Hamas is. Israel is defending itself against that aggression. And yeah, being the civilian population of a brutal dictatorship that wages war against neighbor(s) without regard to the well-being of its own population sucks. It's horrible. Should Ukraine stop defending itself because some Russians may get hurt? Should the allies not have conquered Germany and Japan in WW2, because of the toll on the German civilian population? Yes, war is horrible. Pro Tip: don't start wars.
- mpweiher 1y ago
  Well, in fact it is. First the "official" agencies in charge of most of this aid are practically indistinguishable from Hamas. Second, most if not all the funds get diverted. Third, Hamas appears to enjoy widespread support within the Palestinian population, as shown by the last free elections, which Hamas won handily, as well as opinion polls and public displays. And I am not talking about basic humanitarian aid such as food and medicines. I am talking about the high-level assistance, construction aid. Famously, water pipes paid for by the EU were torn out and used to make rockets and/or rocket launchers.
disgruntledphd2 1y ago
This is tricky. Hamas are definitely bad guys, but it's not right to punish the Palestinians for their actions. The EU broke off formal relations with Hamas in 2007, aid is different though.
- mpweiher 1y ago
  1. The Palestinians are not being "punished". That would actually be illegal and is not what Israel is doing. Israel is trying to destroy the party that attacked them, which is a legitimate war aim. 2. Being the civilian population of a dictatorship waging a brutal war of annihilation against its neighbors sucks, but is not the fault of the party being attacked and defending itself from said brutal attack. 3. Particularly if that dictatorship very explicitly uses the civilian population as human shields (an actual war crime) and does everything to maximize civilian casualties. Again, this is horrible, but not on the party that was attacked by said dictatorship, but rather on the dictatorship 4. Unlike, say, Nazi Germany, the last election produced a very solid majority for the party that is now running the dictatorship. And polls as well as public display, as much as those can be trusted, show a significant if not overwhelming majority in support of the war of annihilation waged against Israel.
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    So you're telling me that Israel have not been stopping aid from getting into Gaza for three weeks now? That is definitely a war crime. And basically Hamas are fighting a guerrilla war and engaging in acts of terror similar to what the Zionists engaged in pre 48. If that was ok, then surely what Hamas are doing is fine? I'm really confused about your notion that the Israeli state is being attacked. It's more accurate to say that both sides are being attacked, and only one side is engaging in plans to displace one side. The last election was in 2007, half the Gaza population wasn't even born then. By your logic the carbrt bombing of Dresden and nuking Japan were fine, is that a fair summation of your position?
    - mpweiher 1y ago
      Yeah, it's not a war crime. Israel is not required to supply its enemy. If the enemy takes control of humanitarian aid shipments, which Hamas has done consistently from the start, the requirement to supply aid no longer applies. So Israel has been over-fulfilling its requirements. And when it stops over-fulfilling people start accusing it of war crimes. You know what's a war crime? - Using your own civilian population as human shields - Commandeering humanitarian aid - Unprovoked attacks targeting civilians - Using hospitals and schools to launch attacks (including rocket attacks) Nothing about war is "OK", and neither is your attempt at framing. War is horrible. Pro-Tip: don't start wars. Free bonus pro-tip: don't start wars and then cry victim when you start losing. However, neither Dresden nor the nuclear attacks were "genocide". Look it up. And last I checked, the consensus is that they were not war crimes, although a vocal minority claims otherwise.