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Even if you insist on going through the cities in the valley they chose a construction sequence that takes the longest time to show any process. If they fast tr

by bardak 1y ago

Even if you insist on going through the cities in the valley they chose a construction sequence that takes the longest time to show any process. If they fast tracked LA-Bakersfield they could have extended the Amtrak San Joaquin service to LA by now. Concentrat on the SF-Merced section next and then you can work on the Merced-Bakersfield piece meal.

socalgal2 1y ago
I thought they were unclear if LA-Bakerfield is even possible. My understanding comes from a podcast that wasn't about the rail at all, it was about how to make decisions. In the podcast they gave the example that if you decide to have a music box and a dancing monkey at a fair to make money, which do you do first, make the music box or train the monkey. The answer is, train the monkey, because if you can't train the monkey there is no point in making the music box (something you know can be made). Her point was people delude themselves into thinking they're making progress on a project by starting with the easy stuff. But the easy stuff is pointless if the hard stuff is impossible. She gave the example of the California high-speed rail. They're building the flat easy part first but engineers have not figured out how they're going to build the train between Bakersfield and Los Angeles through the Tehachapi Mountains. Until they've figured that out the flat part is a waste of time and a false example of progress.
- PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
  Unless, of course, the flat easy part has value anyway. note: I'm not arguing whether it does or does not.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- bombcar 1y ago
  But neither would have to be the first step. Making the route from San Diego to LA high-speed is perfectly doable (the route exists already), and would be a great stepping stone. Even if it turns out the Tehachapi is basically the mountains of Mordor and the project ends, you'd still have a valuable high-speed corridor.
  - everybodyknows 1y ago
    You'd think. But efforts long underway to incrementally improve the SD-LA section are now caught in a deep mire of NIMBYism: https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/new-study-multiplies-possible-routes-for-del-mar-rail-tunnel-project/ https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/new-study-...
    - saagarjha 1y ago
      These people are objecting to…a train running under them? Why?
      - bombcar 1y ago
        Because of disruption during drilling, apparently, but mostly because they’re rich and can complain.
      - joncrocks 1y ago
        Depending on the depth of the tunnel and the construction of the structure, you can get vibrations through the ground and foundations of the structure transmitted such that they are noticeable. e.g. If you live above a tube line in London (London Underground) then you may hear/feel rumbling every time a train passes under you.
  - inglor_cz 1y ago
    The Basque Y high speed rail project in Spain, currently being built, goes through some very challenging mountainous terrain. If Spain, with 33 500 USD GDP per capita, can do it, then so should California, whose GDP per capita exceeds 100 000 USD. But yeah, better private sector does not necessarily buy better public sector.
- pj_mukh 1y ago
  "they're going to build the train between Bakersfield and Los Angeles through the Tehachapi Mountains." OMG, just join the I-5 after Bakersfield. It's right there. Why are we barreling through the mountains?
  - frickinLasers 1y ago
    You mean the train? I don't think they do well with steep grades [1]. [1] https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/23106/what-determines-the-maximum-possible-slope-of-rail-transportation-without-rack https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/23106/what-d...
    - LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
      Depends on how steep. 4% is no problem for modern traction. Just look at this https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Wiedtalbrücke_Blickrichtung_Norden.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Wiedtalbrücke_Blickricht... which is used at 300kph by electric multiple units like the german Inter City Expres. I've rode over this at about 330kph shortly after opening, it's slightly noticable, but not like a roller-coaster at all, as one might think. Meanwhile this is also used by more conventional electrical engines for passenger trains up to 250kph, also in 'pusher' mode, and short freight trains, no longer than 700m, at anything between 160 to 200kph during nights. According to Wikipedia 'the Bakersfield–Palmdale section of the line will cross Tehachapi Pass, roughly parallelling the Union Pacific Railroad's Mojave Subdivision. Due to its heavy freight traffic and sharp curves (including the famous Tehachapi Loop), there is no current passenger service through the pass. While the proposed high-speed rail alignment will not include any long tunnels comparable to those in Pacheco Pass, it has nine shorter tunnels and several viaducts more than 200 feet (61 m) high. The maximum grade through the pass would be - 2.8 - percent, making it the steepest portion of the Phase 1 route.' Easy peasy. Edit: TL;DR? All of this is explained here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightline_West https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightline_West
      - frickinLasers 1y ago
        Okay, but the I-5 doesn't bother with loops and tunnels. It just barrels right over the top of the mountains, including a 5-mile section of 6% grade according to the sign (https://www.crashforensics.com/tejonpass.cfm https://www.crashforensics.com/tejonpass.cfm). Trucks struggle to crawl over the top at like 30 mph, with tires. It's not exactly a roller coaster hill to be overcome with inertia.

by bardak 1y ago

socalgal2 1y ago

I thought they were unclear if LA-Bakerfield is even possible. My understanding comes from a podcast that wasn't about the rail at all, it was about how to make decisions. In the podcast they gave the example that if you decide to have a music box and a dancing monkey at a fair to make money, which do you do first, make the music box or train the monkey. The answer is, train the monkey, because if you can't train the monkey there is no point in making the music box (something you know can be made). Her point was people delude themselves into thinking they're making progress on a project by starting with the easy stuff. But the easy stuff is pointless if the hard stuff is impossible. She gave the example of the California high-speed rail. They're building the flat easy part first but engineers have not figured out how they're going to build the train between Bakersfield and Los Angeles through the Tehachapi Mountains. Until they've figured that out the flat part is a waste of time and a false example of progress.

PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
Unless, of course, the flat easy part has value anyway. note: I'm not arguing whether it does or does not.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
bombcar 1y ago
But neither would have to be the first step. Making the route from San Diego to LA high-speed is perfectly doable (the route exists already), and would be a great stepping stone. Even if it turns out the Tehachapi is basically the mountains of Mordor and the project ends, you'd still have a valuable high-speed corridor.
- everybodyknows 1y ago
  You'd think. But efforts long underway to incrementally improve the SD-LA section are now caught in a deep mire of NIMBYism: https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/new-study-multiplies-possible-routes-for-del-mar-rail-tunnel-project/ https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/new-study-...
  - saagarjha 1y ago
    These people are objecting to…a train running under them? Why?
    - bombcar 1y ago
      Because of disruption during drilling, apparently, but mostly because they’re rich and can complain.
    - joncrocks 1y ago
      Depending on the depth of the tunnel and the construction of the structure, you can get vibrations through the ground and foundations of the structure transmitted such that they are noticeable. e.g. If you live above a tube line in London (London Underground) then you may hear/feel rumbling every time a train passes under you.
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  The Basque Y high speed rail project in Spain, currently being built, goes through some very challenging mountainous terrain. If Spain, with 33 500 USD GDP per capita, can do it, then so should California, whose GDP per capita exceeds 100 000 USD. But yeah, better private sector does not necessarily buy better public sector.
pj_mukh 1y ago
"they're going to build the train between Bakersfield and Los Angeles through the Tehachapi Mountains." OMG, just join the I-5 after Bakersfield. It's right there. Why are we barreling through the mountains?
- frickinLasers 1y ago
  You mean the train? I don't think they do well with steep grades [1]. [1] https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/23106/what-determines-the-maximum-possible-slope-of-rail-transportation-without-rack https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/23106/what-d...
  - LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
    Depends on how steep. 4% is no problem for modern traction. Just look at this https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Wiedtalbrücke_Blickrichtung_Norden.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Wiedtalbrücke_Blickricht... which is used at 300kph by electric multiple units like the german Inter City Expres. I've rode over this at about 330kph shortly after opening, it's slightly noticable, but not like a roller-coaster at all, as one might think. Meanwhile this is also used by more conventional electrical engines for passenger trains up to 250kph, also in 'pusher' mode, and short freight trains, no longer than 700m, at anything between 160 to 200kph during nights. According to Wikipedia 'the Bakersfield–Palmdale section of the line will cross Tehachapi Pass, roughly parallelling the Union Pacific Railroad's Mojave Subdivision. Due to its heavy freight traffic and sharp curves (including the famous Tehachapi Loop), there is no current passenger service through the pass. While the proposed high-speed rail alignment will not include any long tunnels comparable to those in Pacheco Pass, it has nine shorter tunnels and several viaducts more than 200 feet (61 m) high. The maximum grade through the pass would be - 2.8 - percent, making it the steepest portion of the Phase 1 route.' Easy peasy. Edit: TL;DR? All of this is explained here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightline_West https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightline_West
    - frickinLasers 1y ago
      Okay, but the I-5 doesn't bother with loops and tunnels. It just barrels right over the top of the mountains, including a 5-mile section of 6% grade according to the sign (https://www.crashforensics.com/tejonpass.cfm https://www.crashforensics.com/tejonpass.cfm). Trucks struggle to crawl over the top at like 30 mph, with tires. It's not exactly a roller coaster hill to be overcome with inertia.