5 ms·

I read the article. It's dangerous nonsense.

by ConspiracyFact 1y ago

defrost 1y ago
Where's the danger? Where's the nonsense in acknowledging the origins of algebra?
- breppp 1y ago
  It's dangerous because of post colonialism and earlier post structuralism is in its basis. That philosophical school sees truth as being a fantasy and subservient to power. Therefore it is common for an adherent of post-colonialism to believe a statement is true if it was made by a person arbitrarily considered oppressed, while the same logic might be false if made by an 'oppressor'. As this approach makes all science to be political effort before a discovery effort, it was highly successful in the highly political environment of the academics, as it also has highly favorable economical results for its followers. (New departments, ability to religiously outcast the old, new postions) The problem as it reaches the hard sciences, for example the religious sacrifice each ML paper needs to make to the gods of ethics, is that it assaults the very notion of truth by its very essence. It is easy to see why this is highly problematic for mathematics
  - thrance 1y ago
    What? Have you really read the Nature article? You're talking absolute nonsense here. No one is out to redefine mathematics, fuck! You want real politicization of science? Check out the GOP's pomicies. They're the one cutting funding to organization that won't bow to their ideological lines. They're the ones barring access to foreign scientists for having criticized the dear leader online. They're the ones appointing political commissars to overview what's fine or not to work on in labs. 75% of scientists that ever published in Nature are now considering leaving the US [1] from fear of the administration. Is that not a concern to you? [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00938-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00938-y
    - breppp 1y ago
      Politicizing the sciences is a huge issue from both sides, and Trump efforts are worrying I currently worry more about the left though, as it is much more powerful in the academics, and actually creates political "science" today
      - thrance 1y ago
        ????? Talk to any academic, ask them wether they fear more from blue haired teens or the looming fascist threat that is Trump and his cabinet. You may be surprised by the answer.
        breppp 1y ago
        you asked me though, and that is my opinion
        thrance 1y ago
        Fair enough, I am simply baffled that some people can still believe the threat to science comes from the left in the face of an overwhelming and unprecendented anti-science crusade from the right. Now I wonder what the current administration would need to do for you to change your mind. Behead scientists? They're already detaining them, so that's the next logical step.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - defrost 1y ago
    No part of your comment addresses any "nonsense" or "danger" in the Nature article ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00240-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00240-9 ) The context was: > *At least read the Nature one, damn.* ~ @thrance > *I read the article. It's dangerous nonsense.* ~ @ConspiracyFact > *Where's the danger? Where's the nonsense in acknowledging the origins of algebra?* ~ @myself Do you have _ any _ meaningful critique of the contents of, say, maths historian George Joseph’s book The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics (1991) ? This appears to be old established material that I read in the ANU library back in the early 1980s.
    - breppp 1y ago
      I read the Nature article, and I read the seminal work on the subject Orientalism by Said. The context of the article is post-colonialism, a very established philosophical movement. This is shown when they mention whether mathematics is socially constructed and in the actual title "decolonization". I then proceeded to criticize that movement and explain why it is a problem for mathematics. You and the other poster responded with anger, I do not agree I am the one who is not meaningfully contributing
      - skyyler 1y ago
        Do you think there may have been developments in this space since 1978, when Said published Orientalism? I don't mean to be rude, but do you think it's possible that your understanding of the situation is a bit out of date?
        breppp 1y ago
        Maybe, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject. Which part of my critique of post-colonialism do you think had become obsolete?
        skyyler 1y ago
        >Therefore it is common for an adherent of post-colonialism to believe a statement is true if it was made by a person arbitrarily considered oppressed This part. I'm not sure if it's because it's out of date or just plain wrong, though.
thrance 1y ago
You're beyond saving then, if basic historical research is "dangerous nonsense". What's the risk there? Discovering a theorem was known at an earlier point in history? Big whoop. Seriously, what's the danger? Be clear. It feels like you peolple are unable to articulate anything more than "thouhtcrime!!". Also, what do you think of the actual threats Trump made to academics? Is it dangerous too or not?

I read the article. It's dangerous nonsense.

defrost 1y ago

Where's the danger? Where's the nonsense in acknowledging the origins of algebra?

breppp 1y ago
It's dangerous because of post colonialism and earlier post structuralism is in its basis. That philosophical school sees truth as being a fantasy and subservient to power. Therefore it is common for an adherent of post-colonialism to believe a statement is true if it was made by a person arbitrarily considered oppressed, while the same logic might be false if made by an 'oppressor'. As this approach makes all science to be political effort before a discovery effort, it was highly successful in the highly political environment of the academics, as it also has highly favorable economical results for its followers. (New departments, ability to religiously outcast the old, new postions) The problem as it reaches the hard sciences, for example the religious sacrifice each ML paper needs to make to the gods of ethics, is that it assaults the very notion of truth by its very essence. It is easy to see why this is highly problematic for mathematics
- thrance 1y ago
  What? Have you really read the Nature article? You're talking absolute nonsense here. No one is out to redefine mathematics, fuck! You want real politicization of science? Check out the GOP's pomicies. They're the one cutting funding to organization that won't bow to their ideological lines. They're the ones barring access to foreign scientists for having criticized the dear leader online. They're the ones appointing political commissars to overview what's fine or not to work on in labs. 75% of scientists that ever published in Nature are now considering leaving the US [1] from fear of the administration. Is that not a concern to you? [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00938-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00938-y
  - breppp 1y ago
    Politicizing the sciences is a huge issue from both sides, and Trump efforts are worrying I currently worry more about the left though, as it is much more powerful in the academics, and actually creates political "science" today
    - thrance 1y ago
      ????? Talk to any academic, ask them wether they fear more from blue haired teens or the looming fascist threat that is Trump and his cabinet. You may be surprised by the answer.
      - breppp 1y ago
        you asked me though, and that is my opinion
        thrance 1y ago
        Fair enough, I am simply baffled that some people can still believe the threat to science comes from the left in the face of an overwhelming and unprecendented anti-science crusade from the right. Now I wonder what the current administration would need to do for you to change your mind. Behead scientists? They're already detaining them, so that's the next logical step.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- defrost 1y ago
  No part of your comment addresses any "nonsense" or "danger" in the Nature article ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00240-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00240-9 ) The context was: > *At least read the Nature one, damn.* ~ @thrance > *I read the article. It's dangerous nonsense.* ~ @ConspiracyFact > *Where's the danger? Where's the nonsense in acknowledging the origins of algebra?* ~ @myself Do you have _ any _ meaningful critique of the contents of, say, maths historian George Joseph’s book The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics (1991) ? This appears to be old established material that I read in the ANU library back in the early 1980s.
  - breppp 1y ago
    I read the Nature article, and I read the seminal work on the subject Orientalism by Said. The context of the article is post-colonialism, a very established philosophical movement. This is shown when they mention whether mathematics is socially constructed and in the actual title "decolonization". I then proceeded to criticize that movement and explain why it is a problem for mathematics. You and the other poster responded with anger, I do not agree I am the one who is not meaningfully contributing
    - skyyler 1y ago
      Do you think there may have been developments in this space since 1978, when Said published Orientalism? I don't mean to be rude, but do you think it's possible that your understanding of the situation is a bit out of date?
      - breppp 1y ago
        Maybe, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject. Which part of my critique of post-colonialism do you think had become obsolete?
        skyyler 1y ago
        >Therefore it is common for an adherent of post-colonialism to believe a statement is true if it was made by a person arbitrarily considered oppressed This part. I'm not sure if it's because it's out of date or just plain wrong, though.

thrance 1y ago

You're beyond saving then, if basic historical research is "dangerous nonsense". What's the risk there? Discovering a theorem was known at an earlier point in history? Big whoop. Seriously, what's the danger? Be clear. It feels like you peolple are unable to articulate anything more than "thouhtcrime!!". Also, what do you think of the actual threats Trump made to academics? Is it dangerous too or not?