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If Apartheid South Africa could last just a little bit longer, they would still be an apartheid state like Israel is today. Western media is just as complicit

If Apartheid South Africa could last just a little bit longer, they would still be an apartheid state like Israel is today. Western media is just as complicit in this genocide as the fascists in charge of the Israeli government. And media are self-censoring which is reprehensible. The idea of Hamas wouldn't exist if Gaza (and the West Bank) wasn't occupied by land, air and sea; their land stolen on a daily basis, and Palestinian people treated as subhuman animals.

YZF 1y ago
Palestinian violence predates the 1967 and 1948. Also Gaza wasn't occupied since Israel left it in 2005. Here's is one example from 1954 when Israel did not control Gaza or the West Bank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27ale_Akrabim_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27ale_Akrabim_massacre "The Ma'ale Akrabim massacre, known in English as the Scorpions Pass Massacre, was an attack on an Israeli passenger bus, carried out on 17 March 1954, in the middle of the day. Eleven passengers were shot dead by the attackers who ambushed and boarded the bus. One passenger died 32 years later of his injuries, in a state of paralysis and partial consciousness. Four passengers survived, two of whom had been injured by the gunmen." Palestinians are largely in the reality they're in due to the violence.
- defrost 1y ago
  Can you remind us whether this bus attack in which 11 people died came before or after the 1948-1949 Plan Dalet during which over 500 Arab villages were destroyed or depopulated by military forces under the direction of later first prime minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion? The plan's tactics involved laying siege to Palestinian Arab villages, bombing neighbourhoods of cities, forced expulsion of their inhabitants, and setting fields and houses on fire and detonating TNT in the rubble to prevent any return. Zionist military units possessed detailed lists of neighborhoods and villages to be destroyed and their Arab inhabitants expelled. This strategy is subject to controversy, with some historians characterizing it as defensive, while others assert that it was an integral part of a planned strategy for the expulsion, sometimes called an ethnic cleansing, of the area's native inhabitants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet Israelis and Palestinians are largely in the reality they're in due to the violence.
  - YZF 1y ago
    Why are we moving the goal posts? Parent claims the violence is simply due to: "The idea of Hamas wouldn't exist if Gaza (and the West Bank) wasn't occupied by land, air and sea; their land stolen on a daily basis, and Palestinian people treated as subhuman animals." This is not true. And this is what I'm addressing in my reply. We can litigate 1948 as well. Plenty of Palestinian violence pre-1948. Their refusal to accept the UN's partition plan (which was a lot more generous than the two state solution people are talking about today). EDIT: Also I hope you're not trying to say that Israel's actions during the war in 1948 (even if we accept they were in the wrong, which I do not) justify boarding a bus and slaughtering civilians 6 years later. Your last statement I guess is true but not helpful. Plenty of violence to go around.
    - michaelsshaw 1y ago
      All military actions made by oppressed peoples is legitimate resistance and your framing of Palestinians as instigators is troubling.
      - gryzzly 1y ago
        not wearing uniform, attacking civilians, capturing hostages and holding your own civilian population hostage by violently taking over the commercial distribution of free humanitarian aid can not be called legitimate in any way
        michaelsshaw 1y ago
        You're right, Hamas should focus on uniform production(they wear uniform bandanas BTW, watch their videos) while Gaza has a higher proportion of destroyed buildings than Germany in ww2. You certainly got your priorities straight.
        YZF 1y ago
        They have other problems that are higher priority apparently: "A 22-year-old Palestinian man was tortured and killed by Hamas militants after he criticized the group publicly and participated in rare anti-Hamas protests in Gaza, his family said. Uday Rabie was taken last week by dozens of armed fighters with Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, in the Tal al-Hawa neighborhood of Gaza City, his brother Hassan Rabie told CNN on Tuesday." - https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/01/middleeast/uday-rabie-palestinian-tortured-hamas-intl-latam/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/01/middleeast/uday-rabie-palesti... And by the way, while they do have uniform, they don't wear them when they fight. Only for celebrations like their marching of civilian hostages. Gaza also has a higher proportion of structures used for military purposes (like all of them?) then Germany in WW2. There have been cities in Germany during WW-II that have been completely destroyed - we can pick that as a comparison. Picking entire Germany vs a tiny area is not reasonable.
- michaelsshaw 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - gryzzly 1y ago
    your position is to omit agency of the palestinians which is harmful to any peace process
    - michaelsshaw 1y ago
      In what way? In the fact that I support their right to defend themselves from genocidal Israelis?
- tradethedelta 1y ago
  Funny how easy it is to forget that guerilla terrorist actions were introduced to the region by Zionists in the 1940s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing Just to name a notable event amongst many. Many of the masterminds of the early Zionist insurgency later became top Israeli government officials. Sad to think that Jews and Arabs lived ok side by side. Right wing radicals realized their destiny could only be completed with Palestinian displacement.
  - YZF 1y ago
    Why are we changing the topic? This isn't a "who started" question. The assertion was that Palestinians are murdering Israeli civilians only because of how they're are treated in the West Bank and in Gaza. And that's somehow justified. My example shows this is clearly not true. Palestinians murdered Israeli civilians when the West Bank and Gaza were not even under Israeli control. And well before that as well. The correct order of events here is that Israel is responding to violence and defending its citizens. Not that the Palestinians are peace loving people who are under such dire conditions that it justifies blowing up busses and murdering children. For what it's worth the answer to "who started" is the Arabs unless you consider Jewish presence/immigration/return to their historic homeland as an affront, which ofcourse the Arabs do. If your position is that Jews are not allowed to live in the middle east despite their strong historical connection and their legal claims then ofcourse nothing they can do is right. The King David hotel was the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces. They were also warned to evacuate and this was a splinter group that executed the attack not really representative of the majority of the Jewish population. This attack for the most part is relevant in the context of the British occupation of the region. Current day Palestinian narrative essentially puts the Jewish people as British agents who are colonizing Israel. Total nonsense. You're not wrong that figures like Begin and Shamir eventually became the government though that was decades later. Shamir was one of the first Israeli prime ministers to try and seek a peaceful solution during the Madrid Conference: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1989-1992/madrid-conference https://history.state.gov/milestones/1989-1992/madrid-confer... [EDIT: And Begin promised to give Palestinians autonomy as part of the peace agreement with Egypt] It's the Palestinians who are creating the Israeli right wing radicals. It's the Palestinians who are creating a situation where the only way Israelis can live in peace is by displacing the Palestinians. It's the Palestinians who are playing a lose-lose game instead of a win-win one. You could see that in 1948 when they attacked Israel. You could see that when Israel left Gaza in 2005. You could see that in the suicide bombing campaign of the early 2000s. And you can see this right now with Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank. Jews and Arabs lived ok side by side only when the Jews "knew their place" or when the Jews had power. There is no precedent for anything else. The Israeli right wing extremism is more or less a mirror image. They used to be outlawed and have risen as a result of a campaign of violence against Israel. There is no example since 1948 of when Palestinians came and said we are going to stop violence and settle things through negotiation. They've always negotiated out of one side and murdered civilians out of the other. And here we are. EDIT2: It's worth noting the British prevented Jewish people from immigrating to Palestine which sealed the fate of many to death in WW-II. They also put illegal immigrants in camps and mass deported them back to be killed in Europe. They also hanged and imprisoned quite a few Jewish people during the British Mandate period. They hanged quite a few Arabs as well. That said the majority of the Jewish community did not support violence against the British. It's worth noting the mandate given to the British was essentially to establish a Jewish state in that region (initially including Jordan). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine

YZF 1y ago

Palestinian violence predates the 1967 and 1948. Also Gaza wasn't occupied since Israel left it in 2005. Here's is one example from 1954 when Israel did not control Gaza or the West Bank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27ale_Akrabim_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27ale_Akrabim_massacre "The Ma'ale Akrabim massacre, known in English as the Scorpions Pass Massacre, was an attack on an Israeli passenger bus, carried out on 17 March 1954, in the middle of the day. Eleven passengers were shot dead by the attackers who ambushed and boarded the bus. One passenger died 32 years later of his injuries, in a state of paralysis and partial consciousness. Four passengers survived, two of whom had been injured by the gunmen." Palestinians are largely in the reality they're in due to the violence.

defrost 1y ago
Can you remind us whether this bus attack in which 11 people died came before or after the 1948-1949 Plan Dalet during which over 500 Arab villages were destroyed or depopulated by military forces under the direction of later first prime minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion? The plan's tactics involved laying siege to Palestinian Arab villages, bombing neighbourhoods of cities, forced expulsion of their inhabitants, and setting fields and houses on fire and detonating TNT in the rubble to prevent any return. Zionist military units possessed detailed lists of neighborhoods and villages to be destroyed and their Arab inhabitants expelled. This strategy is subject to controversy, with some historians characterizing it as defensive, while others assert that it was an integral part of a planned strategy for the expulsion, sometimes called an ethnic cleansing, of the area's native inhabitants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet Israelis and Palestinians are largely in the reality they're in due to the violence.
- YZF 1y ago
  Why are we moving the goal posts? Parent claims the violence is simply due to: "The idea of Hamas wouldn't exist if Gaza (and the West Bank) wasn't occupied by land, air and sea; their land stolen on a daily basis, and Palestinian people treated as subhuman animals." This is not true. And this is what I'm addressing in my reply. We can litigate 1948 as well. Plenty of Palestinian violence pre-1948. Their refusal to accept the UN's partition plan (which was a lot more generous than the two state solution people are talking about today). EDIT: Also I hope you're not trying to say that Israel's actions during the war in 1948 (even if we accept they were in the wrong, which I do not) justify boarding a bus and slaughtering civilians 6 years later. Your last statement I guess is true but not helpful. Plenty of violence to go around.
  - michaelsshaw 1y ago
    All military actions made by oppressed peoples is legitimate resistance and your framing of Palestinians as instigators is troubling.
    - gryzzly 1y ago
      not wearing uniform, attacking civilians, capturing hostages and holding your own civilian population hostage by violently taking over the commercial distribution of free humanitarian aid can not be called legitimate in any way
      - michaelsshaw 1y ago
        You're right, Hamas should focus on uniform production(they wear uniform bandanas BTW, watch their videos) while Gaza has a higher proportion of destroyed buildings than Germany in ww2. You certainly got your priorities straight.
        YZF 1y ago
        They have other problems that are higher priority apparently: "A 22-year-old Palestinian man was tortured and killed by Hamas militants after he criticized the group publicly and participated in rare anti-Hamas protests in Gaza, his family said. Uday Rabie was taken last week by dozens of armed fighters with Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, in the Tal al-Hawa neighborhood of Gaza City, his brother Hassan Rabie told CNN on Tuesday." - https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/01/middleeast/uday-rabie-palestinian-tortured-hamas-intl-latam/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/01/middleeast/uday-rabie-palesti... And by the way, while they do have uniform, they don't wear them when they fight. Only for celebrations like their marching of civilian hostages. Gaza also has a higher proportion of structures used for military purposes (like all of them?) then Germany in WW2. There have been cities in Germany during WW-II that have been completely destroyed - we can pick that as a comparison. Picking entire Germany vs a tiny area is not reasonable.
michaelsshaw 1y ago
[flagged]
- gryzzly 1y ago
  your position is to omit agency of the palestinians which is harmful to any peace process
  - michaelsshaw 1y ago
    In what way? In the fact that I support their right to defend themselves from genocidal Israelis?
tradethedelta 1y ago
Funny how easy it is to forget that guerilla terrorist actions were introduced to the region by Zionists in the 1940s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing Just to name a notable event amongst many. Many of the masterminds of the early Zionist insurgency later became top Israeli government officials. Sad to think that Jews and Arabs lived ok side by side. Right wing radicals realized their destiny could only be completed with Palestinian displacement.
- YZF 1y ago
  Why are we changing the topic? This isn't a "who started" question. The assertion was that Palestinians are murdering Israeli civilians only because of how they're are treated in the West Bank and in Gaza. And that's somehow justified. My example shows this is clearly not true. Palestinians murdered Israeli civilians when the West Bank and Gaza were not even under Israeli control. And well before that as well. The correct order of events here is that Israel is responding to violence and defending its citizens. Not that the Palestinians are peace loving people who are under such dire conditions that it justifies blowing up busses and murdering children. For what it's worth the answer to "who started" is the Arabs unless you consider Jewish presence/immigration/return to their historic homeland as an affront, which ofcourse the Arabs do. If your position is that Jews are not allowed to live in the middle east despite their strong historical connection and their legal claims then ofcourse nothing they can do is right. The King David hotel was the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces. They were also warned to evacuate and this was a splinter group that executed the attack not really representative of the majority of the Jewish population. This attack for the most part is relevant in the context of the British occupation of the region. Current day Palestinian narrative essentially puts the Jewish people as British agents who are colonizing Israel. Total nonsense. You're not wrong that figures like Begin and Shamir eventually became the government though that was decades later. Shamir was one of the first Israeli prime ministers to try and seek a peaceful solution during the Madrid Conference: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1989-1992/madrid-conference https://history.state.gov/milestones/1989-1992/madrid-confer... [EDIT: And Begin promised to give Palestinians autonomy as part of the peace agreement with Egypt] It's the Palestinians who are creating the Israeli right wing radicals. It's the Palestinians who are creating a situation where the only way Israelis can live in peace is by displacing the Palestinians. It's the Palestinians who are playing a lose-lose game instead of a win-win one. You could see that in 1948 when they attacked Israel. You could see that when Israel left Gaza in 2005. You could see that in the suicide bombing campaign of the early 2000s. And you can see this right now with Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank. Jews and Arabs lived ok side by side only when the Jews "knew their place" or when the Jews had power. There is no precedent for anything else. The Israeli right wing extremism is more or less a mirror image. They used to be outlawed and have risen as a result of a campaign of violence against Israel. There is no example since 1948 of when Palestinians came and said we are going to stop violence and settle things through negotiation. They've always negotiated out of one side and murdered civilians out of the other. And here we are. EDIT2: It's worth noting the British prevented Jewish people from immigrating to Palestine which sealed the fate of many to death in WW-II. They also put illegal immigrants in camps and mass deported them back to be killed in Europe. They also hanged and imprisoned quite a few Jewish people during the British Mandate period. They hanged quite a few Arabs as well. That said the majority of the Jewish community did not support violence against the British. It's worth noting the mandate given to the British was essentially to establish a Jewish state in that region (initially including Jordan). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine