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Or, you know, build a business that customers are willing to pay for… Spend less than you earn. Maybe get an SMB loan if the numbers work. This approach is old

Or, you know, build a business that customers are willing to pay for… Spend less than you earn. Maybe get an SMB loan if the numbers work. This approach is older than the tech industry.

9rx 1y ago
Trouble is that there isn't much the consumer is willing to pay for anymore. They've become accustomed to devices like their phone where a single purchase fulfills an endless number of functions. The thought of buying much more is becoming a foreign concept. To complicate matters: For what they are not buying, they aren't saving up the money ready to deploy when something compelling does come around. They've decided to redirect that money into paying more for things like housing instead. Good luck chipping that away. There is still plenty of opportunity to build a business that sells to customers who are collecting those angel checks (directly or indirectly). But that is dependent on at least some businesses being funded by angels.
- LikeAnElephant 1y ago
  I respectfully disagree that there’s no business opportunity that people are willing to pay for. If your only target are developers or the tech industry, maybe, but there’s a whole world of non technical business people with problems that have extremely easy (and boring) technical solutions. I’ve recently signed up my third customer paying $49/mo with a simple CRUD app. No targeted ads or landing pages. I literally walked into offices in my town and asked what the most annoying part of their job is and I made a prototype. They signed a 6 month commitment. They’re amazed at my “computer skills” only because they don’t know any better. Not saying I’ll become insanely rich, but my goal is a reasonable living ($200-$300k) within 5 years. All this to say I think the opportunities in this market are there, but they look different.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > I literally walked into offices in my town and asked what the most annoying part of their job is and I made a prototype. Consumers don't have offices. You are looking at a business-to-business transaction, which is where we said there is still opportunity, in large part thanks to those collecting angel money. If you are going to disagree, surely you can provide an example of where you have sold to the consumer? Affirming that you could only find opportunity selling to other businesses too makes it seem like you do agree.
    - tptacek 1y ago
      Literally every freelancer can tell you a story that refutes what you're saying here.
      - 9rx 1y ago
        The only real tech "freelancing", if we are to call it that, opportunities as it pertains to consumers is possibly in fixing someone's home computer/phone, and that is within the small set of things consumers are still willing to pay for. In fact, one's phone was explicitly mentioned. But it is unlikely that most "freelancers", within the tech sphere, are making a business out of that. Maybe we all have a grandmother tossing a few bucks out here and there when she needs help. Is that what you mean? But that's ignoring that freelancing itself is normally a business-to-business transaction by definition, so your assertion is a bit strange if we are to stick to general understandings. What is the pet definition you are trying to use here that should change our understanding?
        tptacek 1y ago
        Are we just talking past each other here? Are you saying that it's hard to bootstrap a pure B2C business using only B2C revenue sources? Because that's not what I'd do; I'd consult to other businesses. That's what 37signals did.
        9rx 1y ago
        > Are you saying that it's hard to bootstrap a pure B2C business using only B2C revenue sources? I said that consumers don't like to buy much these days, so business opportunities are effectively limited to selling to other businesses. But businesses can't absorb buying your wares if they can't sell to someone else in kind – eventually meaning the consumer. That is, unless they have angel money to burn. So what was also said is that even within the B2B space, you are bound to be dependent on angel money even if you don't receive it directly. Meaning, as it pertained to the comment that came before it, that someone needs to accept the angel money to keep the house of cards standing. > That's what 37signals did. 37signals doesn't strike me as trying to tackle B2C in any meaningful capacity either. 'Hey' plays that angle a little bit, which is maybe what you are thinking of, but it is clear that selling to business is still the bread and butter even there.
- whilenot-dev 1y ago
  B2C isn't the only business model, businesses and governments pay for a ton of stuff.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > businesses and governments pay for a ton of stuff. Yes, that was addressed in the second half of the comment. But ultimately business must serve consumers – unless angel money is paying for. If you sell to a business, who sells to a business, who sells to a business, who sells to a business collecting angel checks you are still dependent on angel money. Government too is effectively the angel model. The money will be there even if the consumer isn't being served anything they want to pay for.
tptacek 1y ago
Nobody disagrees with that. The clear subtext to that comment is "if you plan to raise money". You can bootstrap a successful firm without raising a dollar.

Or, you know, build a business that customers are willing to pay for… Spend less than you earn. Maybe get an SMB loan if the numbers work. This approach is older than the tech industry.

9rx 1y ago

Trouble is that there isn't much the consumer is willing to pay for anymore. They've become accustomed to devices like their phone where a single purchase fulfills an endless number of functions. The thought of buying much more is becoming a foreign concept. To complicate matters: For what they are not buying, they aren't saving up the money ready to deploy when something compelling does come around. They've decided to redirect that money into paying more for things like housing instead. Good luck chipping that away. There is still plenty of opportunity to build a business that sells to customers who are collecting those angel checks (directly or indirectly). But that is dependent on at least some businesses being funded by angels.

LikeAnElephant 1y ago
I respectfully disagree that there’s no business opportunity that people are willing to pay for. If your only target are developers or the tech industry, maybe, but there’s a whole world of non technical business people with problems that have extremely easy (and boring) technical solutions. I’ve recently signed up my third customer paying $49/mo with a simple CRUD app. No targeted ads or landing pages. I literally walked into offices in my town and asked what the most annoying part of their job is and I made a prototype. They signed a 6 month commitment. They’re amazed at my “computer skills” only because they don’t know any better. Not saying I’ll become insanely rich, but my goal is a reasonable living ($200-$300k) within 5 years. All this to say I think the opportunities in this market are there, but they look different.
- 9rx 1y ago
  > I literally walked into offices in my town and asked what the most annoying part of their job is and I made a prototype. Consumers don't have offices. You are looking at a business-to-business transaction, which is where we said there is still opportunity, in large part thanks to those collecting angel money. If you are going to disagree, surely you can provide an example of where you have sold to the consumer? Affirming that you could only find opportunity selling to other businesses too makes it seem like you do agree.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    Literally every freelancer can tell you a story that refutes what you're saying here.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      The only real tech "freelancing", if we are to call it that, opportunities as it pertains to consumers is possibly in fixing someone's home computer/phone, and that is within the small set of things consumers are still willing to pay for. In fact, one's phone was explicitly mentioned. But it is unlikely that most "freelancers", within the tech sphere, are making a business out of that. Maybe we all have a grandmother tossing a few bucks out here and there when she needs help. Is that what you mean? But that's ignoring that freelancing itself is normally a business-to-business transaction by definition, so your assertion is a bit strange if we are to stick to general understandings. What is the pet definition you are trying to use here that should change our understanding?
      - tptacek 1y ago
        Are we just talking past each other here? Are you saying that it's hard to bootstrap a pure B2C business using only B2C revenue sources? Because that's not what I'd do; I'd consult to other businesses. That's what 37signals did.
        9rx 1y ago
        > Are you saying that it's hard to bootstrap a pure B2C business using only B2C revenue sources? I said that consumers don't like to buy much these days, so business opportunities are effectively limited to selling to other businesses. But businesses can't absorb buying your wares if they can't sell to someone else in kind – eventually meaning the consumer. That is, unless they have angel money to burn. So what was also said is that even within the B2B space, you are bound to be dependent on angel money even if you don't receive it directly. Meaning, as it pertained to the comment that came before it, that someone needs to accept the angel money to keep the house of cards standing. > That's what 37signals did. 37signals doesn't strike me as trying to tackle B2C in any meaningful capacity either. 'Hey' plays that angle a little bit, which is maybe what you are thinking of, but it is clear that selling to business is still the bread and butter even there.
whilenot-dev 1y ago
B2C isn't the only business model, businesses and governments pay for a ton of stuff.
- 9rx 1y ago
  > businesses and governments pay for a ton of stuff. Yes, that was addressed in the second half of the comment. But ultimately business must serve consumers – unless angel money is paying for. If you sell to a business, who sells to a business, who sells to a business, who sells to a business collecting angel checks you are still dependent on angel money. Government too is effectively the angel model. The money will be there even if the consumer isn't being served anything they want to pay for.

tptacek 1y ago

Nobody disagrees with that. The clear subtext to that comment is "if you plan to raise money". You can bootstrap a successful firm without raising a dollar.