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I think your comment can be boiled down to "management doesn't respect engineers" That's the fundamental problem. Some MBA or book somewhere convinced people t

I think your comment can be boiled down to "management doesn't respect engineers" That's the fundamental problem. Some MBA or book somewhere convinced people that respect and dignity were optional. Once they realized they could apply this to more than engineers they started painting the entire world with this bullshit.

Clubber 1y ago
I think they take them for granted not realizing that things can get much worse. I think they do this because they don't understand it. Ever been on a call with a company and they have to tell you, "You'll have to call back, our systems are down." This can cost millions an hour.
hnthrow90348765 1y ago
Personally I think it's just their social circles that reinforce this, not the boogeyman MBA stuff. Because at some level, yes, they can be intimidated by technical people and this is a defense to avoid the "why am I even employed" spiral. It would be nice if they could meet us half-way on the technical stuff. They regularly merge architects and sysadmins into developer roles making us learn more stuff.
danaris 1y ago
> Some MBA or book somewhere convinced people that respect and dignity were optional. Whatever the origin, this is actually a very serious problem that afflicts our society at large, well beyond MBA culture.
ebiester 1y ago
Let me take the opposite point - it isn't that management does or doesn't respect engineers, but that it does not respect them more or less than sales, or product, or marketing, or legal, or any other part of the system. If all of sales says "I am losing these deals because our competitors have X, and I cannot make my quota without X, and you do not make your numbers without X." - how do you balance that against a department head who says, "I cannot give you any features this quarter because we've been focusing on features over codebase health for too long?" Someone who says no for too long doesn't last.
- throwway120385 1y ago
  > Someone who says no for too long doesn't last. I actually think the engineering manager is probably in the wrong there, because if killer feature X is that critical to sales, then it needs to be prioritized in among the tech debt. It doesn't matter that the codebase health is not great if sales plummet. Being a good employee means sometimes prioritizing the health of the business and not the ergonomics of the work environment. And being a good manager means understanding when the health of the business is really at stake or whether the sales team is just throwing shade because they don't want to sell what the company has.
  - kemiller2002 1y ago
    This is an important point. Many people lose sight of the idea that tomorrow doesn't matter if you don't survive today.
  - anonfordays 1y ago
    This comment shows great understanding and experience. Too often engineers treat work like their pet/FOSS project and forget it's a business, and businesses are in business to make money, not pretty code bases.
  - ebiester 1y ago
    So, I absolutely agree here that an engineering manager has to have the insight to tell truth from catastrophising on both sides. At the same time, I've seen sales orgs drive a department into the ground where everything comes to a screeching halt. I've seen times where that "feature X" is vaporware. Times when feature X is possible there because of different architecture choices. Newer entrants who learned from the older entrants. Features that look great for smaller customers that can't scale. And all of those might be plausible answers. As you'd agree, nuance is key here. However, that is all from the department or product head. Now consider the CEO's perspective that has 8 equally loud voices all clamoring for resources. My point is that it might not be disrespect but rather a management team that is trying to navigate competing priorities and economic realities.
  - nradov 1y ago
harrall 1y ago
Software engineers tend to downplay artists, designers, marketing and product. Frankly everyone downplays someone else based on their social circle. The only people who don’t have wide social circles but most people don’t.
- sunrunner 1y ago
  "Everyone thinks their job in the Silo is the most important. Mine actually is." -- Juliette Nichols (also some Software Engineers)
Fruitmaniac 1y ago
I'm an engineer with an MBA and they definitely don't teach in business school that respect is optional. It's just something bad managers do all on their own.

Clubber 1y ago

I think they take them for granted not realizing that things can get much worse. I think they do this because they don't understand it. Ever been on a call with a company and they have to tell you, "You'll have to call back, our systems are down." This can cost millions an hour.

hnthrow90348765 1y ago

Personally I think it's just their social circles that reinforce this, not the boogeyman MBA stuff. Because at some level, yes, they can be intimidated by technical people and this is a defense to avoid the "why am I even employed" spiral. It would be nice if they could meet us half-way on the technical stuff. They regularly merge architects and sysadmins into developer roles making us learn more stuff.

danaris 1y ago

> Some MBA or book somewhere convinced people that respect and dignity were optional. Whatever the origin, this is actually a very serious problem that afflicts our society at large, well beyond MBA culture.

ebiester 1y ago

Let me take the opposite point - it isn't that management does or doesn't respect engineers, but that it does not respect them more or less than sales, or product, or marketing, or legal, or any other part of the system. If all of sales says "I am losing these deals because our competitors have X, and I cannot make my quota without X, and you do not make your numbers without X." - how do you balance that against a department head who says, "I cannot give you any features this quarter because we've been focusing on features over codebase health for too long?" Someone who says no for too long doesn't last.

throwway120385 1y ago
> Someone who says no for too long doesn't last. I actually think the engineering manager is probably in the wrong there, because if killer feature X is that critical to sales, then it needs to be prioritized in among the tech debt. It doesn't matter that the codebase health is not great if sales plummet. Being a good employee means sometimes prioritizing the health of the business and not the ergonomics of the work environment. And being a good manager means understanding when the health of the business is really at stake or whether the sales team is just throwing shade because they don't want to sell what the company has.
- kemiller2002 1y ago
  This is an important point. Many people lose sight of the idea that tomorrow doesn't matter if you don't survive today.
- anonfordays 1y ago
  This comment shows great understanding and experience. Too often engineers treat work like their pet/FOSS project and forget it's a business, and businesses are in business to make money, not pretty code bases.
- ebiester 1y ago
  So, I absolutely agree here that an engineering manager has to have the insight to tell truth from catastrophising on both sides. At the same time, I've seen sales orgs drive a department into the ground where everything comes to a screeching halt. I've seen times where that "feature X" is vaporware. Times when feature X is possible there because of different architecture choices. Newer entrants who learned from the older entrants. Features that look great for smaller customers that can't scale. And all of those might be plausible answers. As you'd agree, nuance is key here. However, that is all from the department or product head. Now consider the CEO's perspective that has 8 equally loud voices all clamoring for resources. My point is that it might not be disrespect but rather a management team that is trying to navigate competing priorities and economic realities.
- nradov 1y ago

harrall 1y ago

Software engineers tend to downplay artists, designers, marketing and product. Frankly everyone downplays someone else based on their social circle. The only people who don’t have wide social circles but most people don’t.

sunrunner 1y ago
"Everyone thinks their job in the Silo is the most important. Mine actually is." -- Juliette Nichols (also some Software Engineers)

Fruitmaniac 1y ago

I'm an engineer with an MBA and they definitely don't teach in business school that respect is optional. It's just something bad managers do all on their own.