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The interesting question is whether the West is succesful because of or inspite of our Christian base. There's no denying the place of Christianity in European

by rvense 1y ago

The interesting question is whether the West is succesful because of or inspite of our Christian base. There's no denying the place of Christianity in European history, but that doesn't mean that the good things about our societies are due to Christianity. Christianity has changed a lot since Roman times, and its place and expression in various societies have been affected by other ideological currents and reinterpretations. I'm Danish, which while nominally Christian has been a fairly irreligious country for a few generations now, and it certainly seems to me that the less influence and visibility Christianity has had, the better off we've been. Most of the things that make this country a good place to live come from socialism/social democracy and feminism, whereas many strands of Christianity has mostly been a reactionary force (with some exceptions).

exe34 1y ago
Christians and Christian apologists like to pretend that Christianity led to social progress, when at every turn, the church had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world, and only then claimed the progress as their own.
- mightyham 1y ago
  You certainly don't have to be a Christian apologist to acknowledge the unique contributions Christianity has made to the development of the west.
  - judahmeek 1y ago
    What contributions to the development of the west are you attributing specifically to Christianity?
  - spiderfarmer 1y ago
    Do you also acknowledge the bad side?
  - exe34 1y ago
    English is not my native language - could you help me understand where I gave the impression that Christianity made no contributions to the development of the west?
throw0101c 1y ago
> There's no denying the place of Christianity in European history, but that doesn't mean that the good things about our societies are due to Christianity. Well, the elimination of slavery, and development of human rights (every human is a 'child of God', whether king or peasant). Which is tied in with the concept of individualism: * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/27/inventing-individual-origins-western-liberalism-larry-siedentop-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/27/inventing-indi... The modern idea of science needed certain metaphysical assumptions that weren't really present in many other religions (and to the extent they were present in philosophy, aspects of said philosophy(s) were often mainstreamed by Christianity (e.g., Aristotle)): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Providing_assumptions_required_for_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Provid... * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:God_the_Geometer.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:God_the_Geometer.jpg And where "science" (or what passed for it at the time) existed elsewhere, it often withered or was snuffed out; the invention of the telescope was transformational in Europe, but not so much in Muslim lands, Mughal India, or Imperial China: * https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/intellectual-curiosity-and-the-scientific-revolution/2F4FAD59FC3F9F1CA299A43C05D25832 https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/intellectual-curiosity-... Various legal forms were promulgated by the Church (including that the authorities themselves were not (notionally) above the law: not something you'll find with (e.g.) the Chinese Emperor), as were universities: * https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo5620943.html https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo562094... And if they were not due to Christianity, I'd say [citation needed] on how they developed otherwise. And more than developed, but became 'mainstream' thinking in many parts of the globe (though certainly not universally, as Chinese Uyghurs are experiencing).
- rvense 1y ago
  But if these things are because of Christianity, and it is often implied that western modernity is present in it from its beginning, almost an unavoidable consequent of it... then why are they not universal in Christendom? Why can I point to just as many Christian movements who are anti-science, pro-slavery, anti-individual?
  - 1y ago

by rvense 1y ago

exe34 1y ago

Christians and Christian apologists like to pretend that Christianity led to social progress, when at every turn, the church had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world, and only then claimed the progress as their own.

mightyham 1y ago
You certainly don't have to be a Christian apologist to acknowledge the unique contributions Christianity has made to the development of the west.
- judahmeek 1y ago
  What contributions to the development of the west are you attributing specifically to Christianity?
- spiderfarmer 1y ago
  Do you also acknowledge the bad side?
- exe34 1y ago
  English is not my native language - could you help me understand where I gave the impression that Christianity made no contributions to the development of the west?

throw0101c 1y ago

> There's no denying the place of Christianity in European history, but that doesn't mean that the good things about our societies are due to Christianity. Well, the elimination of slavery, and development of human rights (every human is a 'child of God', whether king or peasant). Which is tied in with the concept of individualism: * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/27/inventing-individual-origins-western-liberalism-larry-siedentop-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/27/inventing-indi... The modern idea of science needed certain metaphysical assumptions that weren't really present in many other religions (and to the extent they were present in philosophy, aspects of said philosophy(s) were often mainstreamed by Christianity (e.g., Aristotle)): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Providing_assumptions_required_for_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Provid... * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:God_the_Geometer.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:God_the_Geometer.jpg And where "science" (or what passed for it at the time) existed elsewhere, it often withered or was snuffed out; the invention of the telescope was transformational in Europe, but not so much in Muslim lands, Mughal India, or Imperial China: * https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/intellectual-curiosity-and-the-scientific-revolution/2F4FAD59FC3F9F1CA299A43C05D25832 https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/intellectual-curiosity-... Various legal forms were promulgated by the Church (including that the authorities themselves were not (notionally) above the law: not something you'll find with (e.g.) the Chinese Emperor), as were universities: * https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo5620943.html https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo562094... And if they were not due to Christianity, I'd say [citation needed] on how they developed otherwise. And more than developed, but became 'mainstream' thinking in many parts of the globe (though certainly not universally, as Chinese Uyghurs are experiencing).

rvense 1y ago
But if these things are because of Christianity, and it is often implied that western modernity is present in it from its beginning, almost an unavoidable consequent of it... then why are they not universal in Christendom? Why can I point to just as many Christian movements who are anti-science, pro-slavery, anti-individual?
- 1y ago