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Your comment is interesting in various ways, but I want to focus on the idea that Legitimate song structure = melody + chorus + bridge Is there something abou

Your comment is interesting in various ways, but I want to focus on the idea that Legitimate song structure = melody + chorus + bridge Is there something about such a song structure that is somewhat universal or is it just so established in our culture that any song that doesn't have those elements sounds... impoverished? Are there other, alternative song structures that tend to produce satisfying music? I'm not being dismissive; I'm legitimately interested in exploring this idea.

bc569a80a344f9c 2y ago
Any music theorist would tell you there’s no such thing as “legitimate song structure”. Verse/chorus/bridge is at most _common_ (though in no way legitimizing) at a very specific time in a very specific culture, there are plenty of counterexamples from the last 50 years. If you’re interested in stuff like this, YouTube has approachable music theorists making good content. 12Tone is quite good.
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  I'm sure that's true, but I specifically referred to Western music found on music charts. Obviously I knew the assertion is wide open for attack on the "legitimacy" idea, but I think an objective analysis of hit-song structure would reveal trends that support the idea of optimal "catchiness."
nextts 2y ago
Bohemian Rhapsody springs to mind. Most of Pink Floyd's The Wall. Yeah lots of famous rock stuff now I think of it. AC/DC Led Zeppelin. Is it cheating to not use pop in the examples? Takes a lot of effort to break the mold though!
- devnullbrain 2y ago
  You can find plenty of examples just from The Beatles
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  Springs to mind as what? A counter-example? If so, I would not agree.
  - nextts 2y ago
    Wikipedia: > The song is highly unusual for a popular single in featuring no chorus, combining disparate musical styles, and containing lyrics which eschew conventional love-based narratives, and instead make allusions to murder and nihilism.[5] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Rhapsody https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Rhapsody
    - DidYaWipe 2y ago
      Right... which means that it offers up numerous dramatically different sections that defy the the "press Play... mumble a while... press Stop" trend that I'm complaining about.
chupasaurus 2y ago
Making songs out of shorter different parts so they could be remembered easier is caused by attention span window, not a cultural thing.
DidYaWipe 2y ago
Totally valid question, and I think that yes... there is a reason that our (or Western) song structure has evolved the way it has. For some reason it is very appealing to the listener, and I think it's a combination of sonic qualities but also relief from repetition. And this is what's lacking from a lot of today's music. Today we have what amounts to a loop where someone presses Play, mumbles over it for a period of time, and then presses Stop. There's no payoff. I think one of first times I thought about this was listening to "Crazy in Love" by Beyonce. It has this big build-up that you think is going to go into a satisfying chorus... but it goes nowhere. Nowhere, for the whole song. And that song is fairly dynamic by today's standards.
- gedy 2y ago
  > It has this big build-up that you think is going to go into a satisfying chorus... but it goes nowhere. I don't disagree in general, but that particular song is likely just due to the use of that rising horn sample from the original 1970 Chi-Lites song: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2YjDENPPU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2YjDENPPU
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    That is indeed what I mean... but I don't think the source of the sample makes any difference.
- poincaredisk 2y ago
  I disagree. This song structure is cheap and mostly used for pop songs meant to be a catchy background. Many (most?) music pieces that could be called masterpieces don't follow such simplistic structure. I'm not trying to be pretentious. I'm not a hardcore music fan, and most of the music I listen to nowadays has the classic verse/chorus structure (because it's catchy and ready to vibe on). But pretending it's the one correct way to make music is not right.
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    I'm only talking about pop music; that's what charts typically cover.

bc569a80a344f9c 2y ago

Any music theorist would tell you there’s no such thing as “legitimate song structure”. Verse/chorus/bridge is at most _common_ (though in no way legitimizing) at a very specific time in a very specific culture, there are plenty of counterexamples from the last 50 years. If you’re interested in stuff like this, YouTube has approachable music theorists making good content. 12Tone is quite good.

DidYaWipe 2y ago
I'm sure that's true, but I specifically referred to Western music found on music charts. Obviously I knew the assertion is wide open for attack on the "legitimacy" idea, but I think an objective analysis of hit-song structure would reveal trends that support the idea of optimal "catchiness."

nextts 2y ago

Bohemian Rhapsody springs to mind. Most of Pink Floyd's The Wall. Yeah lots of famous rock stuff now I think of it. AC/DC Led Zeppelin. Is it cheating to not use pop in the examples? Takes a lot of effort to break the mold though!

devnullbrain 2y ago
You can find plenty of examples just from The Beatles
DidYaWipe 2y ago
Springs to mind as what? A counter-example? If so, I would not agree.
- nextts 2y ago
  Wikipedia: > The song is highly unusual for a popular single in featuring no chorus, combining disparate musical styles, and containing lyrics which eschew conventional love-based narratives, and instead make allusions to murder and nihilism.[5] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Rhapsody https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Rhapsody
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    Right... which means that it offers up numerous dramatically different sections that defy the the "press Play... mumble a while... press Stop" trend that I'm complaining about.

chupasaurus 2y ago

Making songs out of shorter different parts so they could be remembered easier is caused by attention span window, not a cultural thing.

DidYaWipe 2y ago

Totally valid question, and I think that yes... there is a reason that our (or Western) song structure has evolved the way it has. For some reason it is very appealing to the listener, and I think it's a combination of sonic qualities but also relief from repetition. And this is what's lacking from a lot of today's music. Today we have what amounts to a loop where someone presses Play, mumbles over it for a period of time, and then presses Stop. There's no payoff. I think one of first times I thought about this was listening to "Crazy in Love" by Beyonce. It has this big build-up that you think is going to go into a satisfying chorus... but it goes nowhere. Nowhere, for the whole song. And that song is fairly dynamic by today's standards.

gedy 2y ago
> It has this big build-up that you think is going to go into a satisfying chorus... but it goes nowhere. I don't disagree in general, but that particular song is likely just due to the use of that rising horn sample from the original 1970 Chi-Lites song: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2YjDENPPU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2YjDENPPU
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  That is indeed what I mean... but I don't think the source of the sample makes any difference.
poincaredisk 2y ago
I disagree. This song structure is cheap and mostly used for pop songs meant to be a catchy background. Many (most?) music pieces that could be called masterpieces don't follow such simplistic structure. I'm not trying to be pretentious. I'm not a hardcore music fan, and most of the music I listen to nowadays has the classic verse/chorus structure (because it's catchy and ready to vibe on). But pretending it's the one correct way to make music is not right.
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  I'm only talking about pop music; that's what charts typically cover.