7 ms·

Permacomputing

87 points by ngc6677 2y ago

ThinkBeat 2y ago
From the text in the link below, it appears that permacomputing is primarily concerned about lowering how much energy you use on tech, and refurbish and reuse old technology. https://permacomputing.net/getting_started/ https://permacomputing.net/getting_started/
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  I wonder what that has to do with "anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism". I don't think I have anything to learn about computing from a website that takes multiple seconds to load plain unstyled text.
  - makapuf 2y ago
    Depends on how many joules are needed for that. And maybe you won't learn anything technical from it, but that the intent is laudable and the approach worth knowing/spreading ?
  - volemo 2y ago
    Hmm, it loaded pretty instantly for me and I don't see much bloat in the source. May be you're experiencing the HN effect? :/
- lloeki 2y ago
  Probably the "Properties of permacomputing systems" down this page acts as a a better description of what it aims to be: https://permacomputing.net/permacomputing/ https://permacomputing.net/permacomputing/
- Lutger 2y ago
  While that is emphasized, I don't think that really captures it. The idea is to apply permaculture to computation, as has been done with industrial agriculture. Permaculture is in the first place an ethical or even utopian project, and I'd characterize it as a counter-culture. You can see this reflected in how permacomputing defines itself in opposition to silicon valley: there's a whole page on what they think is wrong with 'Californian ideology'. See https://permacomputing.net/issues/ https://permacomputing.net/issues/ and https://permacomputing.net/Californian_ideology/ https://permacomputing.net/Californian_ideology/. Permaculture is a design system grounded in ethics, that concerns itself with rethinking a sustainable society inspired by nature. A common trope is the 7 generations rule: how does a design decision today, impact the future of 7 generation down the line? The domain where permaculture is mostly associated with is agricultural systems, but it also has some influence in the built environment. It was never intended to be limited to agriculture. Permacomputing seems to want to extend or apply it to the domain of computing. Honestly I don't find the idea of extending hardware lifespans the most innovative. I think it is interesting to rethink the whole of computing from the pov of 200, 500 or 1000 years into the future: if we still want to be there and have a good life for all (and do computation), how could that impact decisions on hardware today? I think a model where we see all current hardware as a 'repository of components and materials' that can be re-composed (not just recycled) is far more interesting than merely extending lifespans. In that model, there is virtually no waste anymore. Everything can be recombined as we discover more valuable ways of putting things together, rather than thrown away, even after a longer time. I'd argue that also mimics the way nature works. Ecosystems are always growing in complexity as life evolves and diversifies, given the right conditions and lack of bottlenecks. There are no static cycles.
  - Joker_vD 2y ago
    > how does a design decision today, impact the future of 7 generation down the line? There is literally a) no way to answer that, and b) it probably doesn't even matter. For instance, in 1850 (which is roughly 7 generations ago), the Austrian Empire abolished the customs and tariffs between its Hungarian and Ausrtian pieces. How does it impact us today?
hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago
The best way in to permacomputing, imo, continues to be: Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm. Go about your business driving this thing however you want to. Learn to live within its limits. This is truly the computer as bicycle for the mind.
- CursedSilicon 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - jdmoreira 2y ago
    Can you please say more. Curious to learn more about this
    - Philpax 2y ago
      https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - alpaca128 2y ago
        Half those links are broken, the other half about the accusation that they’re nazis because they do torchlight marches, and inbetween a wiki article about a "Unite the Right rally" that contains zero mentions of suckless and seems a bit out of place. Is there anything more concrete?
        jdmoreira 2y ago
        Yeah. My thoughts exactly. Sounds like a witch hunt. How about we start calling people nazis when they are actually literal nazis?
    - maeln 2y ago
volemo 2y ago
Gotta mention: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com
california-og 2y ago
I highly recommend reading this paper^[0] on permacomputing. It explains the concept in depth. > In this paper, we argue for the potential of permacomputing as a rich framework for exploring creative design constraints building on a long history of applying constraints in art, design and cultural practices. [0]: https://monoskop.org/images/6/6a/Mansoux_Aymeric_et_al_2023_Permacomputing_Aesthetics.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/6/6a/Mansoux_Aymeric_et_al_2023_...
moconnor 2y ago
The landing page doesn't actually describe what it is. Is it using old chips and writing low level code? Is it open source? You kind of have to define a movement somehow, right? An example of what a permacomputing solution to a problem vs a traditional one would look like would do a lot of work here. Perhaps where "ପໄଓ -:*´" is...
project2501a 2y ago
Lovely. More neo-liberalism in neo-hippy format. The next Burning Man: Save the planet, compute in older hardware. Detractors: You can't be anti-capitalist without being on the other side. Also, you can't put individual issues above societal issues.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
binary132 2y ago
I don’t think this concept really needs a brand and manifesto, especially not one that will obviously alienate anyone who isn’t a Marxist, etc., etc., etc. It’s not a tough sell to tell people that maybe the permanent revolution / forced march of planned-obsolescent tech products isn’t a good thing for most people. Slapping a bunch of “COEXIST” bumper stickers on that is a better way to slow it down than to speed it up.

87 points by ngc6677 2y ago

From the text in the link below, it appears that permacomputing is primarily concerned about lowering how much energy you use on tech, and refurbish and reuse old technology. https://permacomputing.net/getting_started/ https://permacomputing.net/getting_started/

mvdtnz 2y ago
I wonder what that has to do with "anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism". I don't think I have anything to learn about computing from a website that takes multiple seconds to load plain unstyled text.
- makapuf 2y ago
  Depends on how many joules are needed for that. And maybe you won't learn anything technical from it, but that the intent is laudable and the approach worth knowing/spreading ?
- volemo 2y ago
  Hmm, it loaded pretty instantly for me and I don't see much bloat in the source. May be you're experiencing the HN effect? :/
lloeki 2y ago
Probably the "Properties of permacomputing systems" down this page acts as a a better description of what it aims to be: https://permacomputing.net/permacomputing/ https://permacomputing.net/permacomputing/
Lutger 2y ago
While that is emphasized, I don't think that really captures it. The idea is to apply permaculture to computation, as has been done with industrial agriculture. Permaculture is in the first place an ethical or even utopian project, and I'd characterize it as a counter-culture. You can see this reflected in how permacomputing defines itself in opposition to silicon valley: there's a whole page on what they think is wrong with 'Californian ideology'. See https://permacomputing.net/issues/ https://permacomputing.net/issues/ and https://permacomputing.net/Californian_ideology/ https://permacomputing.net/Californian_ideology/. Permaculture is a design system grounded in ethics, that concerns itself with rethinking a sustainable society inspired by nature. A common trope is the 7 generations rule: how does a design decision today, impact the future of 7 generation down the line? The domain where permaculture is mostly associated with is agricultural systems, but it also has some influence in the built environment. It was never intended to be limited to agriculture. Permacomputing seems to want to extend or apply it to the domain of computing. Honestly I don't find the idea of extending hardware lifespans the most innovative. I think it is interesting to rethink the whole of computing from the pov of 200, 500 or 1000 years into the future: if we still want to be there and have a good life for all (and do computation), how could that impact decisions on hardware today? I think a model where we see all current hardware as a 'repository of components and materials' that can be re-composed (not just recycled) is far more interesting than merely extending lifespans. In that model, there is virtually no waste anymore. Everything can be recombined as we discover more valuable ways of putting things together, rather than thrown away, even after a longer time. I'd argue that also mimics the way nature works. Ecosystems are always growing in complexity as life evolves and diversifies, given the right conditions and lack of bottlenecks. There are no static cycles.
- Joker_vD 2y ago
  > how does a design decision today, impact the future of 7 generation down the line? There is literally a) no way to answer that, and b) it probably doesn't even matter. For instance, in 1850 (which is roughly 7 generations ago), the Austrian Empire abolished the customs and tariffs between its Hungarian and Ausrtian pieces. How does it impact us today?

hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago

The best way in to permacomputing, imo, continues to be: Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm. Go about your business driving this thing however you want to. Learn to live within its limits. This is truly the computer as bicycle for the mind.

CursedSilicon 2y ago
[flagged]
- jdmoreira 2y ago
  Can you please say more. Curious to learn more about this
  - Philpax 2y ago
    https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - alpaca128 2y ago
      Half those links are broken, the other half about the accusation that they’re nazis because they do torchlight marches, and inbetween a wiki article about a "Unite the Right rally" that contains zero mentions of suckless and seems a bit out of place. Is there anything more concrete?
      - jdmoreira 2y ago
        Yeah. My thoughts exactly. Sounds like a witch hunt. How about we start calling people nazis when they are actually literal nazis?
  - maeln 2y ago

volemo 2y ago

Gotta mention: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com

california-og 2y ago

I highly recommend reading this paper^[0] on permacomputing. It explains the concept in depth. > In this paper, we argue for the potential of permacomputing as a rich framework for exploring creative design constraints building on a long history of applying constraints in art, design and cultural practices. [0]: https://monoskop.org/images/6/6a/Mansoux_Aymeric_et_al_2023_Permacomputing_Aesthetics.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/6/6a/Mansoux_Aymeric_et_al_2023_...

moconnor 2y ago

The landing page doesn't actually describe what it is. Is it using old chips and writing low level code? Is it open source? You kind of have to define a movement somehow, right? An example of what a permacomputing solution to a problem vs a traditional one would look like would do a lot of work here. Perhaps where "ପໄଓ -:*´" is...

project2501a 2y ago

Lovely. More neo-liberalism in neo-hippy format. The next Burning Man: Save the planet, compute in older hardware. Detractors: You can't be anti-capitalist without being on the other side. Also, you can't put individual issues above societal issues.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

binary132 2y ago

I don’t think this concept really needs a brand and manifesto, especially not one that will obviously alienate anyone who isn’t a Marxist, etc., etc., etc. It’s not a tough sell to tell people that maybe the permanent revolution / forced march of planned-obsolescent tech products isn’t a good thing for most people. Slapping a bunch of “COEXIST” bumper stickers on that is a better way to slow it down than to speed it up.