5 ms·

If it’s cooled in an “open cycle”, it means that the water vapor is released in the atmosphere, via these huge aero refrigerators towers. It will eventually fal

by joss82 2y ago

If it’s cooled in an “open cycle”, it means that the water vapor is released in the atmosphere, via these huge aero refrigerators towers. It will eventually fall back down as rain or snow. Water is not a scarce resource in Germany. Shutting down those plans was an ecological and economical disaster bordering on high treason.

Zoadian 2y ago
nonsense. the economy didn't even notice the shutdown. and those plants were more costly to operate than renewables are, so we're enjoying cheaper electricity now. it also wasn't an ecological disaster, in fact it didn't change anything in that regard.
- betimsl 2y ago
  how much is the cost of a kW in Germany?
  - Sayrus 2y ago
    According to eurostat [1], Germany has one of the most expensive electricity (if not the most expensive due to a negative tax in Ireland) in Europe at ~0.35 to 0.40 EUR per kWh. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/8d/Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers%2C_first_half_2024_.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/...
    - JanSt 2y ago
      And an additional (!) 6-7.5 cent per KWh is payed by the "Klima und Transformationsfonds" to the producers of renewable energy.
    - emrox 2y ago
      it's for households. Energy prices for industry is much lower and in 2024 actually cheaper than 2017 (2024: 16,99, 2017: 17,09) Source: https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompreisanalyse/#:~:text=Strompreis%20in%20der%20Industrie https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompre...
      - jeilers 2y ago
        Production cost share for industry: 2017: 08,02 Cent 2024: 15,50 Cent Total cost is only less, because there are fewer levies and taxes.
  - stop50 2y ago
    28.72ct/kwh is the cheapest for my location and 45.51ct/kwh if im in the Grundversorgung(if i fall out for whatever reason out of my regular contract this is the fallback)
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Is that why Germany is pissing and shitting itself over issue of energy from Russia, America and NS2? This is not symptomatic of a healthy and secure energy economy.
- kanwisher 2y ago
  no cause cheap Russian gas and oil replaced it, now with the war on the economy is cratering with expensive energy
  - rickdeckard 2y ago
    actually mostly coal was used to fill the energy gap, increasing pressure to expand rollout of renewables. The media pitch making all this highly political is that fossil fuels from Russia should be / must be used instead of nuclear power, framing the choice to be either pro-Russia or pro-Nuclear (discarding renewables or potential pan-European energy coalitions). In reality the impacts of the shutdown are foreseeable transitional pains. Of course Germany wasn't producing a massive surplus of energy that made it seamless to switch off their nuclear power-plants, so now they need to compensate the gap and make plans to close it. Let's hope they're not all giving up again half-way thanks to politics and revert the decision...
- dtech 2y ago
  Did you miss the natural gas crisis? All of Europe has been scrambling to replace Russian gas with LNG. If I remember correctly Germany even decided to postpone some nuclear reactor closing because of it. European industry and especially Germany industry is facing major stress due to high gas and energy prices.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Is this true? This chart[0] says otherwise. [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/electricity-price https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/electricity-price
- bschne 2y ago
  1. Renewables have currently offset less than half of year 2000 nuclear generation -- https://www.iea.org/countries/germany/energy-mix https://www.iea.org/countries/germany/energy-mix 2. Industrial energy prices seem to have risen pretty consistently since 2000: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/industrialpowerprices-vci.jpg?itok=vu1pDD0V https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... I'm pro renewable build-out, and a lot of new nuclear projects seem to my layman's eyes uneconomical, at least at today's cost (maybe we'd get better at doing it cheaper again if we invested, I don't know), but your claims seem false.
  - JanSt 2y ago
    Renewables are very cheap if you only consider LCOE and not the systemic costs - which is what people like Zoadian love to do. Just ignore all those grid and backup costs. The grid fees alone have been increased substantially and Germany pays out an additional 7 cent per KWh through a fund that is not shown in the electricity bills anymore.
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    > Renewables have currently offset less than half of year 2000 nuclear generation This is simply incorrect. You cite the iea as source, which is of course incentivized to creatively present the facts. In this case, by counting created heat (instead of electricity generation) for nuclear plants, and comparing this with purely electrical output power of PV/wind energy. Actual power from nuclear plants in Germany, year 2000: ~180TWh, Solar + Wind now: >190TWh. Note that total electricity demand has decreased. Electricity from biomass has also grown significantly (also renewable).
vaylian 2y ago
Why would shutting down the reactors be an ecological disaster?
- tzmudzin 2y ago
  You could not replace them entirely with renewables, so fossil fuels were used
- Krssst 2y ago
  Shutting down a nuclear reactor means postponing a coal plant shutdown. Coal being the worst way of generating electricity regarding CO2 emissions.
  - mharig 2y ago
    [dead]
- joss82 2y ago
  Solar and wind cannot replace base load power. Especially not in Germany. They have to rely on peaker plants even more, and those are burning gas, emitting CO2. And they built more coal power plant units, like Datteln 4: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datteln_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datteln_Power_Station
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    > Solar and wind cannot replace base load power This is incorrect, and also completely misunderstanding how electricity pricing dynamics work. Power grids don't need base load providers at all. They need enough dispatchable sources (and/or imports) to cover demand at all times (at least if they want to avoid rolling blackouts like in SA). Providing base load is a privilege you get to enjoy if you have the lowest marginal price at all times (or are technically unable to regulate your output down, and would rather pay not to)-- cheap intermittent sources (solar/wind) make it very difficult for conventional plants to act as "base load provider" profitably.
pintxo 2y ago
Actually, water is scarce in some parts of Germany [1], it might not look like it, but there are still drought conditions in the soil of some parts of Germany [2]. [1] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/wasser/extremereignisseklimawandel/trockenheit-in-deutschland-fragen-antworten#gibt-es-in-deutschland-ein-problem-mit-wasserknappheit- https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/wasser/extremereigniss... [2] https://www.ufz.de/index.php?de=37937 https://www.ufz.de/index.php?de=37937

by joss82 2y ago

Zoadian 2y ago

nonsense. the economy didn't even notice the shutdown. and those plants were more costly to operate than renewables are, so we're enjoying cheaper electricity now. it also wasn't an ecological disaster, in fact it didn't change anything in that regard.

betimsl 2y ago
how much is the cost of a kW in Germany?
- Sayrus 2y ago
  According to eurostat [1], Germany has one of the most expensive electricity (if not the most expensive due to a negative tax in Ireland) in Europe at ~0.35 to 0.40 EUR per kWh. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/8d/Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers%2C_first_half_2024_.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/...
  - JanSt 2y ago
    And an additional (!) 6-7.5 cent per KWh is payed by the "Klima und Transformationsfonds" to the producers of renewable energy.
  - emrox 2y ago
    it's for households. Energy prices for industry is much lower and in 2024 actually cheaper than 2017 (2024: 16,99, 2017: 17,09) Source: https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompreisanalyse/#:~:text=Strompreis%20in%20der%20Industrie https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompre...
    - jeilers 2y ago
      Production cost share for industry: 2017: 08,02 Cent 2024: 15,50 Cent Total cost is only less, because there are fewer levies and taxes.
- stop50 2y ago
  28.72ct/kwh is the cheapest for my location and 45.51ct/kwh if im in the Grundversorgung(if i fall out for whatever reason out of my regular contract this is the fallback)
lupusreal 2y ago
Is that why Germany is pissing and shitting itself over issue of energy from Russia, America and NS2? This is not symptomatic of a healthy and secure energy economy.
kanwisher 2y ago
no cause cheap Russian gas and oil replaced it, now with the war on the economy is cratering with expensive energy
- rickdeckard 2y ago
  actually mostly coal was used to fill the energy gap, increasing pressure to expand rollout of renewables. The media pitch making all this highly political is that fossil fuels from Russia should be / must be used instead of nuclear power, framing the choice to be either pro-Russia or pro-Nuclear (discarding renewables or potential pan-European energy coalitions). In reality the impacts of the shutdown are foreseeable transitional pains. Of course Germany wasn't producing a massive surplus of energy that made it seamless to switch off their nuclear power-plants, so now they need to compensate the gap and make plans to close it. Let's hope they're not all giving up again half-way thanks to politics and revert the decision...
dtech 2y ago
Did you miss the natural gas crisis? All of Europe has been scrambling to replace Russian gas with LNG. If I remember correctly Germany even decided to postpone some nuclear reactor closing because of it. European industry and especially Germany industry is facing major stress due to high gas and energy prices.
robertlagrant 2y ago
Is this true? This chart[0] says otherwise. [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/electricity-price https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/electricity-price
bschne 2y ago
1. Renewables have currently offset less than half of year 2000 nuclear generation -- https://www.iea.org/countries/germany/energy-mix https://www.iea.org/countries/germany/energy-mix 2. Industrial energy prices seem to have risen pretty consistently since 2000: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/industrialpowerprices-vci.jpg?itok=vu1pDD0V https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... I'm pro renewable build-out, and a lot of new nuclear projects seem to my layman's eyes uneconomical, at least at today's cost (maybe we'd get better at doing it cheaper again if we invested, I don't know), but your claims seem false.
- JanSt 2y ago
  Renewables are very cheap if you only consider LCOE and not the systemic costs - which is what people like Zoadian love to do. Just ignore all those grid and backup costs. The grid fees alone have been increased substantially and Germany pays out an additional 7 cent per KWh through a fund that is not shown in the electricity bills anymore.
- myrmidon 2y ago
  > Renewables have currently offset less than half of year 2000 nuclear generation This is simply incorrect. You cite the iea as source, which is of course incentivized to creatively present the facts. In this case, by counting created heat (instead of electricity generation) for nuclear plants, and comparing this with purely electrical output power of PV/wind energy. Actual power from nuclear plants in Germany, year 2000: ~180TWh, Solar + Wind now: >190TWh. Note that total electricity demand has decreased. Electricity from biomass has also grown significantly (also renewable).

vaylian 2y ago

Why would shutting down the reactors be an ecological disaster?

tzmudzin 2y ago
You could not replace them entirely with renewables, so fossil fuels were used
Krssst 2y ago
Shutting down a nuclear reactor means postponing a coal plant shutdown. Coal being the worst way of generating electricity regarding CO2 emissions.
- mharig 2y ago
  [dead]
joss82 2y ago
Solar and wind cannot replace base load power. Especially not in Germany. They have to rely on peaker plants even more, and those are burning gas, emitting CO2. And they built more coal power plant units, like Datteln 4: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datteln_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datteln_Power_Station
- myrmidon 2y ago
  > Solar and wind cannot replace base load power This is incorrect, and also completely misunderstanding how electricity pricing dynamics work. Power grids don't need base load providers at all. They need enough dispatchable sources (and/or imports) to cover demand at all times (at least if they want to avoid rolling blackouts like in SA). Providing base load is a privilege you get to enjoy if you have the lowest marginal price at all times (or are technically unable to regulate your output down, and would rather pay not to)-- cheap intermittent sources (solar/wind) make it very difficult for conventional plants to act as "base load provider" profitably.

pintxo 2y ago

Actually, water is scarce in some parts of Germany [1], it might not look like it, but there are still drought conditions in the soil of some parts of Germany [2]. [1] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/wasser/extremereignisseklimawandel/trockenheit-in-deutschland-fragen-antworten#gibt-es-in-deutschland-ein-problem-mit-wasserknappheit- https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/wasser/extremereigniss... [2] https://www.ufz.de/index.php?de=37937 https://www.ufz.de/index.php?de=37937